Ponderables

[rabidsamfan]

If hobbits don't wear shoes or boots (except in rare instances) then why on earth does Sam sing about big Boots in the Troll Song, and why does he pack woolen hose?

And when Sam puts the Ring on and chases after the Orcs when they take Frodo, when does he take it off again? How many minutes/hours does Sam wear that thing, actually, and where was Gollum all that long time?

Why is it that I've never run across even one fic so far where Frodo starts out on the Quest properly hobbit-shaped, i.e. tubby in the tummy? And what happened to those rosy cheeks that Gandalf told Barliman about? Well, no I actually know the answers, don't I...

Comments

Re: Hose

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Mmm, yes, it must be the same root as in 'lederhosen'. Oddly enough, we do use the term 'hosiery' quite happily (not in everyday conversation, but in eg. shop terminology) to cover the general range of socks/stockings/tights - but hose/pantyhose as tights or stockings would be thought of as very American!

I'm afraid I don't know a good UK online dictionary; the definitive UK dictionary is the Oxford English Dictionary - I imagine to use this online one would have to register/pay a hefty fee. I have a physical copy of this (it's like 20 volumes in full!); under hose, it gives (in short): "1. An article of clothing for the leg; sometimes reaching only to the ankle as a legging or gaiter, sometimes also covering the foot like a long stocking. 2. (old use) Sometimes an article of clothing for the legs and loins, = breeches, drawers." And, yes, it's related to the Germanic "hose = trousers".

I am often fascinated (and sometimes amused) by differences between American and British English. For instance, continuing with the clothes theme, an American described as dressed in a vest and pants would presumably be considered well-dressed, but an Englishman would be out and about in his underwear! Conversely, an Englishman wearing a jumper wouldn't cause a raised eyebrow - it's a sweater - but I only recently learned in the US is a kind of pinafore-dress (is that right?). Then besides the actual words there are differences in spelling and grammar. I had known for ages about the obvious things like colour/color and grey/gray, but there are the more subtle things like where letters are doubled or not, eg US 'woolen' v. UK 'woollen'. (Funnily enough, using the spell-checker here on LJ has taught me many of these differences.) And then there are tiny details like the different positionings of punctuation-marks inside or outside of quotations. Little things like these can have the unexpected effect of making a piece of writing appear badly written to someone sensitive to their own country's grammatical rules but unfamiliar with another's (as most of us are, I imagine.) And I know some people debate very earnestly about what 'language' they should use when writing fic for a work originally in British English or vice versa (personally I tend to think people should do what they want without fear of being censured by other people - although I do find it odd when Frodo asks for a cookie, for instance!)

Gosh, I rambled on there longer than I meant to, sorry! And thanks very much for the interesting conversation!

Re: Hose

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

I was taught to double the consonant before adding a suffix if the vowel was short but Microsoft Word is very much in the single consonant category (I have to turn off the spellcheck sometimes!)

"Woolen" is one of those words I'd have to think about, as the vowel sound is not clearly short -- I think I'd definitely write "Woolly", though...

I can get the OED at work (I'm a librarian) if I remember to. I knew about the vest and pants and jumper -- I've been reading British authors for years and watching the shows that got transported across the "pond." When I've been doing a lot of that my grammar starts flipping back and forth, and so does my punctuation! But I agree, people should write fics the way they are most comfortable writing and not worry too much about it. I've seen people Britpick Harry Potter stories and take out words I know perfectly well that Dorothy Sayers used, just because they aren't used to a certain regionalism.

Rambling is fun. Isn't that what LJ is for?

Re: Hose

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Hee, lots of people I know are librarians! Me, I'm a part-time wannabe-academic, but currently rather impeded by ME/CFS (I think it's called CFIDS in US?).

Mmn, yes, your mention of D.L. Sayers reminds me that there is yet another possible variation to take into account, alongside that of country, region, class etc. - period. Frankly, given all the potential pitfalls, I think one should be very careful in trying to provide a definitive 'Britpicking' or similar service, although of course such have their place and can be extremely useful (eg. I've provided info on the British school and university systems for people who've asked.) It seems to me there is a fine line between careful crafting of a piece of writing, and being so concerned with 'accuracy' as to become horribly stilted.

Your own Sam-voice, and indeed other Tolkien writing, is wonderfully smooth and flowing - in fact I had to check to user-info to see whether you were British or American! Personally, I am glad I've not yet attempted to write anything in an American fandom - I'm sure I should make an awful mess of it!

Isn't language interesting? Thanks again for the conversation, and would you mind of I friended you?

Re: Hose

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

By all means, friend away. And you're right, there's a very real difference between a bit of research for adding verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative, and getting so obsessive over the details you can't enjoy the story.

I'm glad you think I write Tolkien well, but I must confess that it's because I am a style sponge. Having a fairly barebones style of my own I find it easy to take on the characteristics of another writer for the sake of a story. I do look fairly carefully at Sam's dialect when I read, but that's because I'm always looking for Sam!