I'd really hate to step on the writer's toes. I wouldn't be writing Sam-as-King, but it's definitely a concept that could only have been birthed by her fic. :-/
I don't know. Sam as a confident, mature, come-in-to-his-own hobbit after being Mayor for all those years... I think that's reasonable enough to be a broad theme. Fanon has him as diffident or so old and creaky he can't function half the time (which is why I generally avoid Tol Eressea fics) but that's not necessarily so.
Of course, I'm not the sort of writer who is bothered when my notions appear in other people's fic. I'm far more likely to be pleased that the idea seemed so genuine that other writers picked it up. *shrug* Hey, I'm the one who wrote Speed the Plow (http://rabidsamfan.livejournal.com/10993.html) so you know I'm a bit odd...
I was thinking somewhat of the little Sam-snippets in the HoME, post-LOTR.
I have an unpopular opinion about those, LOL! I think Sam got too full of himself, too fatuously certain and too self-important. And it occurred to me that Tolkien said the same of Sam even at the time of the quest; his hubris in how well he served Frodo was part of the "human" error that led to Gollum's downfall.
I would think, now that I've been prompted to think of a serious personality change, that this excessive pride might be something he would need to be "cured" of in Valinor, just as Frodo was healed from the hurts of the Ring. And rather than Sam being dismayed by how Frodo has changed, Frodo might instead be dismayed by the changes in Sam. There could be serious angst potential there, and nobody has touched on it except for this drabble, AFAIK....
I could see that, actually. I tend to think of all of the Ringbearers, including Sam, as being a bit damaged and needing a bit of a rest cure. Bilbo, who was always a bit of a trickster, got a bit meaner. (Look at the gifts he leaves with those pointed notes!) Frodo, who always stood apart from others a bit (he's surprised to discover that he'll miss Bilbo), got more isolated. And Sam, who is the Gaffer's son after all, would be liable to get stubbornly proud of having good hobbitsense. I should think that he just might need taking down a notch after all those years as Mayor -- but my, it would be difficult to figure out where the (needed) self-confidence and the overweening pride overlapped...
Mind you, I think Gollum's fall had more to do with the damage that Gollum had taken from carrying the darn thing than anything Sam might have done or failed to do. But still...
It would be a very different story than most of them, methinks.
Excerpt from a draft of "Scars," a post-Valinor WIP of mine that as of this moment tallies up to 53,123 words...
*** Sam observed, with some relief, that the table, chairs, and bench at least were of the sort of basic, practical hobbit-design usually found in Shire dwellings. The hard wood, however, presented him with a bit of a problem.
"Frodo, could I trouble you for a pillow?" he asked. "I'm afraid my old bones don't quite get on too well without some padding for sitting."
Frodo paused from lighting the fire and turned to Sam with one eyebrow raised in playful challenge. "What's this, now?" he replied saucily. "Not only am I no longer 'Mr. Frodo,' but you actually are going to allow me to do something for you without making a huge fuss?"
Sam smiled to himself, realizing that this conversation would have left him paralyzed with worry some seventy years ago. But being patriarch to a family of nearly five score had endowed him with his own sense of entitlement over time. "If I were still a lad, I'd do for myself and you both, and you know it," he replied in the tone he likely would have used to command respect at the crowded family dinner table at holiday-time. "But I'm a very old hobbit now, and I think that gives me the right to ask my host to fetch me a seat-cushion, even if he is a gentlehobbit, and even if it does put him out a bit."
This time Frodo laughed aloud as he hung the kettle over the fire. "But you forget, Sam, that I am actually twelve years older than you are. So who should fetch the cushion now?"
"Well, that's as may be," Sam retorted, crossing his arms, "but you don't look one minute older than my own Frodo-lad's youngest boy, and I promise you if he was here, I'd sure make him fetch the cushion, and right sharpish too." Sam affected a scowl that not only served to bring such conversations to an abrupt end at home, but usually sent grandchildren scurrying off in all directions to do his bidding.
"Sam, if only you could see how much you favor your Gaffer when you make such a face!" Frodo chortled. Acknowledging defeat with a graceful part-bow and a ludicrous grin, he left the room and returned with a heavy, overstuffed brocade pillow, which he settled on one of the chair seats with a flourish. "Won't you have a seat, good sir?" he asked with exaggerated formality.
"I will, and that's enough of your teasing," Sam said wryly, lowering himself slowly into the chair.
***
So. Think the two of you will read it when it's done? ;-)
Ooh, I bet you'd do a great job! (I've read your stuff.)
I'm a bit of a media whore (throw another fandom on the pile, oy), and I tend to write short, dense and sloooow. It would be the Fifth Age before I actually finished a 20-page short story expanding on that drabble - if I had the inclination to do so.
I do think Sam is damaged by the Ring (why else offer Valinor to someone like Bilbo or old Sam, who has one hairy foot in the grave already?); he not only put it on, he had it on his finger when he walked into Mordor. I'm working on a longer work based on that, and have no desire to expand on this drabble.
I've decided to set the bunny loose -- anyone who wants to catch it and run with it may do so!
Well, gardnerhill is kind of new to my flist, and considering the way I stuck my foot in it iconwise after I'd been on lj for nearly a year I can't really throw any stones. Hopefully it's just a misunderstanding though.
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branchandroot
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 02:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 02:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 03:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 02:01 am (UTC)Of course, I'm not the sort of writer who is bothered when my notions appear in other people's fic. I'm far more likely to be pleased that the idea seemed so genuine that other writers picked it up. *shrug* Hey, I'm the one who wrote Speed the Plow (http://rabidsamfan.livejournal.com/10993.html) so you know I'm a bit odd...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 02:14 am (UTC)I have an unpopular opinion about those, LOL! I think Sam got too full of himself, too fatuously certain and too self-important. And it occurred to me that Tolkien said the same of Sam even at the time of the quest; his hubris in how well he served Frodo was part of the "human" error that led to Gollum's downfall.
I would think, now that I've been prompted to think of a serious personality change, that this excessive pride might be something he would need to be "cured" of in Valinor, just as Frodo was healed from the hurts of the Ring. And rather than Sam being dismayed by how Frodo has changed, Frodo might instead be dismayed by the changes in Sam. There could be serious angst potential there, and nobody has touched on it except for this drabble, AFAIK....
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 02:42 am (UTC)Mind you, I think Gollum's fall had more to do with the damage that Gollum had taken from carrying the darn thing than anything Sam might have done or failed to do. But still...
It would be a very different story than most of them, methinks.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 09:54 am (UTC)***
Sam observed, with some relief, that the table, chairs, and bench at least were of the sort of basic, practical hobbit-design usually found in Shire dwellings. The hard wood, however, presented him with a bit of a problem.
"Frodo, could I trouble you for a pillow?" he asked. "I'm afraid my old bones don't quite get on too well without some padding for sitting."
Frodo paused from lighting the fire and turned to Sam with one eyebrow raised in playful challenge. "What's this, now?" he replied saucily. "Not only am I no longer 'Mr. Frodo,' but you actually are going to allow me to do something for you without making a huge fuss?"
Sam smiled to himself, realizing that this conversation would have left him paralyzed with worry some seventy years ago. But being patriarch to a family of nearly five score had endowed him with his own sense of entitlement over time. "If I were still a lad, I'd do for myself and you both, and you know it," he replied in the tone he likely would have used to command respect at the crowded family dinner table at holiday-time. "But I'm a very old hobbit now, and I think that gives me the right to ask my host to fetch me a seat-cushion, even if he is a gentlehobbit, and even if it does put him out a bit."
This time Frodo laughed aloud as he hung the kettle over the fire. "But you forget, Sam, that I am actually twelve years older than you are. So who should fetch the cushion now?"
"Well, that's as may be," Sam retorted, crossing his arms, "but you don't look one minute older than my own Frodo-lad's youngest boy, and I promise you if he was here, I'd sure make him fetch the cushion, and right sharpish too." Sam affected a scowl that not only served to bring such conversations to an abrupt end at home, but usually sent grandchildren scurrying off in all directions to do his bidding.
"Sam, if only you could see how much you favor your Gaffer when you make such a face!" Frodo chortled. Acknowledging defeat with a graceful part-bow and a ludicrous grin, he left the room and returned with a heavy, overstuffed brocade pillow, which he settled on one of the chair seats with a flourish. "Won't you have a seat, good sir?" he asked with exaggerated formality.
"I will, and that's enough of your teasing," Sam said wryly, lowering himself slowly into the chair.
***
So. Think the two of you will read it when it's done? ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-12 09:45 pm (UTC)I'm a bit of a media whore (throw another fandom on the pile, oy), and I tend to write short, dense and sloooow. It would be the Fifth Age before I actually finished a 20-page short story expanding on that drabble - if I had the inclination to do so.
I do think Sam is damaged by the Ring (why else offer Valinor to someone like Bilbo or old Sam, who has one hairy foot in the grave already?); he not only put it on, he had it on his finger when he walked into Mordor. I'm working on a longer work based on that, and have no desire to expand on this drabble.
I've decided to set the bunny loose -- anyone who wants to catch it and run with it may do so!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-13 04:01 am (UTC)It may be the fifth age before I finish anything again, too, but we'll see. ;-D
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 03:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 04:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-07 04:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-08 01:54 am (UTC)