New Year

[rabidsamfan]

In Gondor they celebrate the New Year in the spring, to commemorate the day that Frodo reached the Crack of Doom, and Gollum took the Ring into the fire. Aragorn thinks that we should do the same, but Sam says there's more about the day that he wants to forget than he wants to remember, and I just nod. Merry wishes we'd celebrate, I know, but it's different for him. He wasn't there like me and Sam were -- not that day anyway. I asked him if he wanted to celebrate the victory of Pelennor Fields and that shut him up.

Comments

[caraloup.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks so much for the detailed reply! :)

I'm definitely interested in how the quest affected Sam, too, and I think we can safely assume as given that the last two or three days before the Ring's destruction were among the very hardest of his life. (Harder beyond my imagination, surely. :-/)

But I'm not quite sure what kind of connection you see between the fact that Sam wasn't with Frodo on March 13th 1420 and his preference (in your drabble) not to remember (or commemorate) March 25th. Are you wondering if Sam stayed away deliberately to avoid the Shelob anniversary? (And if so, why not anniversaries of other traumatizing events?) Since he returns on the 25th exactly, there's at least an indication that he may have wanted to spend this day with Frodo, whether or not that involves explicitly exchanging memories.

But, more to the point (I think), there are two reasons why I can't quite imagine that Sam would wish to forget March 25th: Yes, climbing Mount Doom and everything what followed was an excruciating experience, but with their pains, Sam and Frodo achieved the liberation of Middle-earth. I think that must make a difference to both their perceptions of their own suffering at the time (which is not to say that it wasn't a deeply scarring experience). So, why not celebrate the good that came of it, and the fact that their sacrifices led to a nearly miraculous turn for the better?

On a more personal level, there's something else that I think Sam would surely remember: And there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor any fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the sweet days in the Shire. "Master!" cried Sam, and fell upon his knees. In all that ruin of the world for the moment he felt only joy, great joy.

Even though Frodo was so irrevocably changed that he couldn't ultimately return to his old life, would Sam really want to forget this moment of relief, gratitude and joy?

Maybe what I'm trying to say with all this is that not only purely positive and happy experiences may lead to a wish to remember them, or even to celebrate their anniversary... If Sam were in this much denial of the 'bad part' of his own experiences, doesn't that imply that he'd also deny how much he himself was transformed by the quest?

a reason why the Shire doesn't celebrate the same New Year as the rest of Aragorn's realm. That's canon, but why?

Because their Fourth Age began with the restoration of the Shire (officially in 1422, according to App. B), I should think, not the Ring's destruction in 1419 which for most of them was little more than a garbled tale about 'chasing black men up mountains', as the Gaffer says. At least that seems like the most obvious explanation to me.

You'd think that Merry and Pippin and Sam would have had enough reason to want the change, and later enough authority to enforce it, but they never seem to have done so...

Hmmm... well, I guess my take on it is that hobbits celebrate because they enjoy it, not because a higher authority tells them that they should commemorate an occasion of which they have no direct experience and relatively little knowledge. So I can't quite imagine that Sam, Pippin and Merry would consider enforcing a new custom.

Enough rambling replies from me! It's just an intriguing subject. :)

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Well, the Shire doesn't change New Years Day, but that doesn't stop a celebration from arising on April 6th (either the blooming of the Mallorn or Sam's birthday) or the blowing of the horn in Buckland once a year either. So new celebrations do get layered onto the old celebrations. Heck, IIRC, Gondor celebrates Frodo's birthday and the Shire doesn't. (yup, last few paragraphs of Appendix D.) Given that Frodo charged Sam with telling the story, you'd think the anniversary of the destruction of the Ring or the Ringbearer's birthday would be natural. And a September party's a lot more likely to have good weather, come to that. But around Hobbiton, it's April 6th...

I think Sam was reluctant to celebrate the 25th, for the reasons I've given -- that during the week or so beforehand he's having his own anniversary issues, and by the day of the 25th he's too worn out to party -- at least for the first few years. And after a while, the April celebration of the birthday of the Master of Bag End has become something of a tradition and it commmemorates something Sam values even over the destruction of the Ring; The restoration of the Shire. The day the mallorn bloomed marked the spring when the Lady's gift truly spread healing over all that had been damaged. That it was Sam's birthday is just gravy, really.

It's not that Sam doesn't want to remember Frodo standing there free of the Ring. I think that's a memory he treasures. I just think that there are a lot of other things that get in the way of that memory sometimes.

Have you read my story "The Ringbearer and the Rose"? I batted around the same questions there too.

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

If Sam were in this much denial of the 'bad part' of his own experiences, doesn't that imply that he'd also deny how much he himself was transformed by the quest?

Ah, but I think Sam does have trouble coming to terms with how much he himself has changed. His delight when the Ring is destroyed is at having his "master" back, not his friend - but they are friends by then. Frodo sees it even if Sam doesn't.


It occurs to me that I posted this around Good Friday for a reason...

[caraloup.livejournal.com]

His delight when the Ring is destroyed is at having his "master" back, not his friend - but they are friends by then.

I don't think "master" and "friend" are mutually exclusive terms for Sam. He can go from 'master' to 'me dear' in one breath after all. (It's quite interesting to see when he begins addressing Frodo as 'Master' - relatively late into the quest - and in which situations he does that. It's almost an endearment at times. :)

But anyway, I agree with you that it can't have been easy for Sam to come to terms with the changes in himself (as it surely wasn't for Frodo either), but that's not the same as wanting to forget... (Yes, splitting hairs, that's me! ;)

Besides the master/friend matter, where do you see indications of it? And while I'm here asking lots of curious questions, what makes you think that Sam had "anniversary issues" particularly? I can't really conclude that from his going off on forestry work, and that he didn't expect Frodo to relive the trauma of October 6th in the Shire doesn't seem to imply that either. (Yes, Sam was there to witness Frodo's reaction in 1419, but they were also geographically close to Weathertop then... did Frodo himself expect this to happen every year, on these particular dates, no matter where he was?)

Bet you can tell I'm having fun talking about Sam, too. :)

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

I think that "master" is distinct from friend in Sam's book, actually. He's both to Frodo, but the thing that kept him sane when he had the Ring was "knowing his place" as it were. It's not that he can't see Frodo's faults, but he does keep him on a bit of a pedestal most of the time. Frodo's the wisest hobbit he knows, except perhaps for Bilbo, even if he is a bit foolish about keeping Smeagol with them.

We've got negative connotations with the word "master", because we associate it with slavery, but I think for Tolkien -- and Sam -- it's as much a relationship of love as anything else. Yes, he works for Frodo, but by choice as well as by tradition. And there's a father/son element to their relationship that gets overlooked a lot in fanon. Frodo is twelve years older than Sam. He came of age when Sam was just coming into his tweens, and when they were younger the gap must have seemed huge, whether you take the 7/11 ratio or not.

Frodo does see Sam as an equal, I think, by the end of the journey. It's Sam who keeps stepping back. Frodo wants Sam to live at Bag End with him, and I think he means to help Sam learn the things he needs to be the heir of Bag End right from the start. That's the father/son thing again. Frodo does for Sam what Bilbo did for him, quite blatantly. But how does Sam take being invited to live in Bag End? As an easier way to take care of Frodo, that's how!

The book doesn't really tell us if Sam has anniversary issues. I infer them, in part because I think that Sam's transformation and struggle with that transformation get short shrift in both canon and fanon. But there are curious gaps. I didn't invent the failure of the Shire to celibrate the 25th of March, Tolkien did -- but in his next breath he gives us another celebration, not two weeks later -- and being me I have to wonder why?

Again, the whole question of March 13th comes up. If there's a day Sam truly wishes to forget, that's the one. He can't, of course, any more than Frodo can. Now, the Shire's not that large, and by the March of 1420 I'd expect Sam to know exactly how far he can travel in a given day in most weathers. But he's not back in Bywater by the 13th. Yes, Frodo had a bad time that first October, but they were still way back at the Ford of Bruinen when he first reacted to the anniversary of the morgul wound. He's not himself on the 6th of October or most of the 7th, if you look at the chapter "Homeward Bound", but he recovers and does well until they're passing Weathertop after that, sometime before the 28th. There were only the four hobbits and Gandalf in the party. Sam has to have noticed that Frodo was hurting, and there's no question that the party identified the cause. Frodo did himself, in the conversation with Gandalf. So, I ask again, why doesn't Sam arrange to be back at the Cotton's place on the 13th of March? He knows better than anyone what day Frodo took the wound from Shelob. What got in his way, if it wasn't his own self? I've approached the question with humor, in "Speed the Plough", but I can never quite escape it.

*bounce bounce bounce* This is much better than thinking about work.

[caraloup.livejournal.com]

I think that "master" is distinct from friend in Sam's book, actually. He's both to Frodo, but the thing that kept him sane when he had the Ring was "knowing his place" as it were. It's not that he can't see Frodo's faults, but he does keep him on a bit of a pedestal most of the time.

We may be arguing semantics here (which is something I enjoy, but not everybody does ;), but I'd describe these things a bit differently. Sam has good reasons for admiring Frodo and certain qualities in him (and *isn't* Frodo finally the wisest person Sam knows in the Shire, unless we count a fleeting acquaintance with Gandalf?). That's not the same as putting him on a pedestal.

I agree, too, that 'master' is distinct from 'friend' and involves different ways of experiencing or expressing affection, too. But Sam's love for Frodo goes beyond the love of a master as their respective roles in the Shire define it, and it's that love, more than knowing his place, that gets Sam through the crisis of Cirith Ungol. (I'm sure you know which quotes I'm referring to, so I won't lengthen this post unduly with them.) When it comes to wanting to return to Frodo and be reunited with him in death, it's no longer a matter of love for a master, it's just far more existential and encompassing.

And there's a father/son element to their relationship that gets overlooked a lot in fanon. Frodo is twelve years older than Sam. He came of age when Sam was just coming into his tweens, and when they were younger the gap must have seemed huge, whether you take the 7/11 ratio or not.

Wow--you know, in all these years of reading LOTR, it had never occurred to me to see anything father/son-like in Frodo and Sam's relationship (though of course I see it between Sam and Bilbo). And now that you've brought it up, I must say that I still don't. :) The 12yr age gap wouldn't seem large enough for us to support the idea, less so among hobbits. Also, I think that age gap is somewhat lessened by their different social status, since Sam has obviously had to work hard, and take responsibilities, from a fairly early age on, while Frodo's privileged status allowed him a somewhat prolonged childhood/adolescence.

Frodo does see Sam as an equal, I think, by the end of the journey. It's Sam who keeps stepping back. Frodo wants Sam to live at Bag End with him

But where is Sam stepping back? He obviously wants to live there too, or he wouldn't move in, but it's definitely not for him to suggest or expect such a thing.

and I think he means to help Sam learn the things he needs to be the heir of Bag End right from the start. That's the father/son thing again.

That's not distinct enough to me to suggest a father/son relationship, since an older brother/cousin who decided to leave everything to a younger brother/cousin would go about it in exactly the same way. I certainly see that Sam looks up to Frodo in many ways, but that's also quite different from how he relates to his Gaffer or Bilbo, so again it doesn't imply 'father' to me.

As an easier way to take care of Frodo, that's how!

Or an easier way to spend as much time with him as possible and just generally share life with him. :)

think that Sam's transformation and struggle with that transformation get short shrift in both canon and fanon.

Which is really puzzling. It's one of the major things that I keep thinking and writing about, so I can totally relate there...

Again, the whole question of March 13th comes up. If there's a day Sam truly wishes to forget, that's the one.

Why do you think that? I'm sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, because I'm sure it seems obvious to you, but it just doesn't to me. Of course it was a terrible experience, but what about Sam makes you think that wishing to forget is his response to such an experience (especially since it doesn't exist in isolation, and what happened afterwards must make a difference to how he remembers it, too)?

(Drat! This is getting too long... I'll continue in another post.)

[caraloup.livejournal.com]

(continued from above...)

As for the time of his return to Bywater, we really know too little about Sam's work and travels to infer anything from that, but I still wonder how and why Sam should expect that Frodo would be affected in similar ways on March 13th as he was on October 6th. And I doubt, actually, that Sam was all that certain of the dates, too, or that they had been clearly established before the actual writing of the Red Book. Time got particularly blurry around Cirith Ungol. But besides the possibility that Sam got absorbed into other things that mattered to him (such as restoring the Shire, or making up his mind to marry Rosie), I can imagine that he really couldn't or didn't want to imagine that there might be recurring anniversaries for Frodo every year, because he hoped that Frodo's return to the Shire would heal his injuries and make him whole again (much as Frodo wished it for him, too). But conscious avoidance, even if that means not to be there and comfort Frodo when he needs Sam? I can't see that in Sam.

This is much better than thinking about work.

Glad you think so! I do too. :)

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sam consciously avoids Frodo that first March -- I think that his own grieving process gets in his way. It's weeks before he thinks of Galadriel's box, and Tolkien tells us he's grieved by the destruction -- one of the few indications of the impact of the entire adventure on Sam. He's too busy to think of his travels? How on earth can he not think of them!

I'm playing with the question of "master/servant" as you can see from my latest entry. I have to go to bed or I'll be useless tomorrow, but I've got half a dozen ideas burbling off this conversation, so I'll probably be back to it again.

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

I do need to say this real quick -- I'm not insisting on any one interpretation! I just think that there's room for Sam to have problems at the anniversary times.

*must sleep*

Re: Father -son?

[eykar.livejournal.com]

With a 12-year age difference? Among hobbits, who don't become fathers until around the age of 40? Even for a human that would be precocious!

Re: Father -son?

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

I only said it was an element of the relationship, not the definition of it! *grin* And you've said as much yourself in earlier conversations.

I'd call it brotherly, but that doesn't strike me as at all right. Sam defers to Frodo in much the same way he defers to the Gaffer, and is worried about disappointing him. When the conspiracy is revealed in Crickhollow, Sam's on tenterhooks until it becomes clear that Frodo approves. It isn't a question of whether or not he's performing his service to Frodo satisfactorily, really -- it's far more like trying to live up to Frodo's expectations.

But, as I said, it's only an element. There's a little of it from Frodo -- he calls Sam "lad" when he pulls him out of the water and chides him in a very parental kind of way. But it's mostly from Sam, who treats Frodo as if he's from a generation which automatically deserves respect.

Re: Father -son?

[eykar.livejournal.com]

I've said as much about the relationship they contructed after the quest, when they were trying to fit back into the Shire. You seem to be talking about all their lives, and that just doesn't fit.

Re: Father -son?

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see a thread of it all the way through -- one strand out of a hundred perhaps, but there. It's why I agree with you about the post-Quest portion of the notion. Except by then Sam's relationship to Frodo is changing in so many ways that it's hard to pin down any aspect firmly. Perhaps the father/son element goes up to one strand in twenty, but there's the counter effect of Sam becoming a father himself when Frodo is not in any case ready to play at grandfather...

Re: Father -son?

[caraloup.livejournal.com]

If I may chime in again here...

Oh, I see a thread of it all the way through -- one strand out of a hundred perhaps, but there.

That's a lovely image (the hundred strands, that is), and very fitting, considering how comprehensive Sam and Frodo's relationship is. It can't be nailed down to any category, but it can encompass aspects of many, and still go beyond them. :)

Re: Father -son?

[calanthe11.livejournal.com]

Hello Rabid, hello Eykar, hello Cara Loup -

Rabid, your warm welcome into already established and hotly debating threads on your other post makes me hopefully that it is okay to "chime in" her, as well??

Your wrote:
There's a little of it from Frodo -- he calls Sam "lad" when he pulls him out of the water and chides him in a very parental kind of way.

Now ... I have to disagree in the most strongest of terms (but then I have come to think even Tolkien somehow *knew* that Sam and Frodo were lovers ;)). But there is nothing "very parental" in the dialogue between Frodo and Sam. That's what I meant about noting the context in my post on the other thread, it's not enough to just note one word.

Here's the full quote from the Book:

"Save me, Mr. Frodo!" gasped Sam. "I'm drownded. I can't see your hand."
"Here it is. Don't pinch, lad! I won't let you go. Tread water and don't flounder, or you'll upset the boat. There now, get hold of the side, and let me use the paddle!"
With a few strokes Frodo brought the boat back to the bank. and Sam was able to scramble out, wet as a water-rat. Frodo took off the Ring and stepped ashore again.
"Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst, Sam!" he said.
"Oh, Mr. Frodo, that's hard!" said Sam shivering. "That's hard, trying to go without me and all. If I hadn't a guessed right, where would you be now?"
"Safely on my way."
"Safely!" said Sam. "All alone and without me to help you? I couldn't have a borne it, it'd have been the death of me."
"It would be the death of you to come with me, Sam," said Frodo, "and I could not have borne that."
"Not as certain as being left behind," said Sam.
"But I am going to Mordor."
"I know that well enough, Mr. Frodo. Of course you are. And I'm coming with you."
"Now, Sam," said Frodo, "don't hinder me! The others will be coming back at any minute. If they catch me here, I shall have to argue and explain, and I shall never have the heart or the chance to get off. But I must go at once. It's the only way."
"Of course it is," answered Sam. "But not alone. I'm coming too, or neither of us isn't going. I'll knock holes in all the boats first."
Frodo actually laughed. A sudden warmth and gladness touched his heart.

Sounds parental? Both are talking about death, Frodo dying in Mordor without Sam, and Frodo being unable to stand it if Sam should die because he came along to help him. Frodo obviously uses "lad" in this context because he assumes an authoritative voice to get Sam to quiet down so he can pull him out of the water. "Lad" also might be used as a term of endearment here. Of course these are not two "equals" speaking with eath other - the age difference and especially the difference in class is very pronounced. But notice who wins the argument, by sheer force of feeling - it's Sam, of course. And notice, too, the "sudden warmth and gladness" which touched Frodo's heart. Sounds parental? I just can't see it.

Thanks so much for another most interesting discussion ...
All the best -
Calanthe

Re: Father -son?

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Well, "confounded nuisances" sounds parental to me -- although I quite agree that Sam wins the argument.

Frodo's not always in touch with his own feelings about other people. He's surprised by how he feels when Bilbo leaves, and again he only realizes what he would be giving up alongside Bag End when Gandalf pulls Sam into the room when he'd been eavesdropping. I see the sudden warmth here as much the same thing.

And yes, please play with the conversation. It's more fun with more points of view!

Re: Father -son?

[calanthe11.livejournal.com]

Hi again -
and thanks for the warm welcome on your new "discussion forum" ;) ...

"confounded nuisances" sounds parental to me --
Hm ... that is certainly well open to interpretation. To me it sounds in a way how also Merry and Pippin could talk to each other. There's certainly a ring of closeness to it, as if they know each other very well. Frodo can say this without having to be afraid that he would hurt Sam's feelings. And Frodo and Sam have been very close, Sam having been Frodo's gardner for 17 (was it 17?) years. I actually doubt that a father would chide a son calling him "confounded nuisances". What's more surprising is that Frodo as Master would call his servant so. Which again, to me, speaks to the closeness of their relationship.

Frodo's not always in touch with his own feelings about other people.
Well, I have to disagree - this is major fanfic clichee, and even if Elijah-as-Frodo is not in touch with his feelings sometimes, Frodo certainly is. Or rather, on the ocassions that he isn't, it's quite natural and normal that he isn't.

When Bilbo left Frodo of course knew about the joke, and was part of all the leave-taking preparations (as least that's what it sounds like from the Book). That he should think about how much he loved Bilbo only in the moment when he was gone, I find psychologically very plausible. I mean, they had lived together for a very long time and were used to each other's presence in Bag End, to their life there together. It would not have made much sense to Frodo to ponder long and deep beforehand what Bilbo's leaving would all mean, especially not amidst the preparations for the Party. That the full extent of what Bilbo's leaving would mean for him, would hit Frodo only in this very moment, makes only sense to me.

That Frodo only realises that he has to give up Bag End when Gandalf pulls in Sam, is a slightly different story. I mean, there Frodo just decided within the span of a couple of hours to give up his entire life, take the One Ring and bring him away, more likely than not a dangerous, even deadly dangerous journey. That the familiar face of Sam would bring the realisation that, amongst all other things, this meant that he would have to give up his home (and leave his friend!), is only too understandable for me. Frodo needed to leave, he did not really have a choice. Later we see how hard it is for Frodo to leave the Shire, and I doubt he could have made the decision if he had thought long about what all he would have to give up for it. Thus again, this scene to me seems not to indicate that Frodo is not in touch with his feelings, but rather that he had to make a very hard decision and to be able to do this, he could only think ahead and not look back.

The feeling of sudden warmth and gladness when Frodo realises Sam is really going with him - well, that is pure relief and utter thankfulness that Sam makes a decision for him which Frodo could never have made for Sam, that is: going with him into most certain death. Frodo is quite in touch with his feelings, I would think, both in this moment as before when he'd come to the decision that he had to leave alone.

All the best -
Calanthe

Re: Father -son?

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Well, my mom was certainly more likely to call me a confounded nuisance than my sibs anyway, LOL!

(Btw, I love it that you keep going back to the source...)

When Bilbo disappears, Frodo enjoys the joke, being in on it, But at the same time he felt deeply troubled; he realized suddenly that he loved the old hobbit dearly. (Emphasis mine."

And again at the end of Shadow of the Past

"It can't be helped, Sam," said Frodo sadly. He had suddenly realized that flying from the Shire would mean more painful partings than merely saying farewell to the comforts of Bag End.

Particularly in the second case I think that shows a disconnect between Frodo's head and heart, because as he approaches fifty he's been thinking more and more about following Bilbo, about "cross(ing) the River some day," and looking at maps and all -- and it hasn't occured to him until he finds out that Sam is upset at the prospect that he realizes he's leaving people as well as a place?

Even his willigness to go is expressed as a desire to follow Bilbo "flaming up" in his heart -- something that comes to him of a sudden. He's been impatient with the Shirefolk, and thinks big people are stupid -- in some ways he's a very conceited fellow! -- but he is also an idealist, and when he sees that something needs to be done he doesn't shirk the task. But I think his heart follows his head, and it surprises him at times.

[rabidsamfan.livejournal.com]

Can you tell I'm having fun talking about Sam?

*grin*