rabidsamfan | (no subject)

A few days ago I posted a drabble called Inevitable and near the end of the comments eykar asked a question I tried to answer, and recently the discussion went to e-mail. But since it was fun, we thought we should share. (She's posting it in her journal too, but feel free to answer in just one or the other.)

#1
Re: Inevitable

rabidsamfan:

Well, in some ways what Sam has to deal with in Frodo
that year is what anyone who is friend to a person
with chronic illness has to deal with, be it physical
or mental.

Eykar:

During my Barnes & Nobles LoTR class, there was much
discussion of whether Frodo was sick, guilty or
generally angsty post-quest. I wrote various drabbles
based on different versions of this, as a way of
testing the ideas, but finally concluded that there is
no such statement in LoTR.

RoTK (Grey Havens) states that Frodo is ill, although
not dramatically so, only on every March 13 and
October 6, and that he gradually withdraws from the
life of the Shire, spending his days writing; however
it also says that Sam, who knows Frodo better than
anyone, feels only a vague anxiety, and only about
Frodo’s social isolation. This anxiety may not even
be due entirely to Frodo’s behavior; part of it may be
due to Sam’s dissatisfaction that the Shire never
recognizes what Frodo did to save it. It may also be
due to a not-yet-verbalized suspicion that someone so
out of touch with the Shire has no real reason to
stay.

Even Tolkien’s famous letter #246, which refers to
Frodo’s ‘dark times coming upon him’ and bringing
‘unreasoning self-reproach’ supplies no reason to
think that these dark times are anything other than
the two anniversaries. (I think of the letters as
Tolkien's LoTR fanfic rather than as canon.)

The strongest support in the text for the angst or
sickness theory is that statement that Frodo would
often finger Arwen’s white jewel. However the meaning
of this gesture is rendered ambiguous by her words on
giving it to him. She refers to hurts grieving him,
the memory of his burden being heavy, and the memories
of fear and darkness troubling him ‘ three different
situations. Only the last is directly connected to
the jewel.

The illness (‘hurts grieving’) is notably limited to
two days a year; the rest of the time, he is writing.
I think one his biggest reasons for writing the Red
Book is to sort out how the quest changed him.
Writing it had to involve a lot of remembering and
emotional reactions, however that doesn’t constitute a
psychiatric disorder. When Frodo finally leaves
Middle Earth, he does not refer to wounds, grief, fear
or darkness; he says only that the Shire was saved but
not for him. His lack of a bond with the Shire is the
primary reason for his leaving Middle Earth,
sufficient with or without any illness.

An interpretation more convincing to me is that during
the quest Frodo became so used to giving up the Shire,
from leaving his home at the beginning to losing his
memories of home at the end, that he lost the ability
to create a new attachment to it. The Shire he returns
to has been ruined ‘ symbolized most strongly for him
by the death of Lotho - and when it rises renewed it
is changed. The same can be said of Frodo, who
considers himself dead (at the end of all things)
after the Ring is destroyed, and whose continued life
can be thought of as a rebirth. Why should Frodo and
the Shire have changed in compatible ways’ He might
wish they had, but he can’t very well force it to be
so.

I don’t find any evidence that this lack of attachment
constitutes a physical or mental illness. I think
that people read that in because they are not
comfortable with the text’s lack of explanation and
because illness is familiar and understandable.
However Tolkien’s story is more interesting than that:
Frodo has changed in ways that the text does not
detail but which make him more compatible with the
Elves and the Maia with whom he eventually sails than
with other hobbits.

Elves as they age become more spiritual, more
contemplative, more creative in non-sexual ways, until
their spirit alone maintains their
no-longer-strictly-material bodies. This is their
natural life-evolution. Maiar are pure spirit who can
take on material form but can as easily remove it like
a worn out garment. Based on this, Frodo, for all his
unpleasant memories, is not sick but rather made more
spiritual ‘ although he is one of a species that has
no concept or vocabulary of the spirit. (He and Sam
discuss spirituality by speaking of the stars, the
Sea, the Elves and, later in the quest, a
dimly-perceived Story-teller. All this is evidence of
lack of native religion.) This alone would make it
very difficult to form a new bond with the Shire, a
whole society to which his most life-defining
experiences are opaque.

Frodo has Been to the Mountain, confronted the Sacred
Fire of Creation (which is older and more powerful
than Sauron,) and been Borne on the Wings of Eagles.
Anyone raised in a biblically-based religion would
understand these referents ‘ but how can Frodo’ Even
more so, how can hobbits who have never left the
Shire’

Instead of engaging in the life of the Shire, Frodo
occupies himself with recording and understanding the
quest, partly so that he can understand why he is no
longer at home in what used to be home. On the
anniversaries of Weathertop and Shelob, he would
consider the worst possible interpretations, but that
leaves 363 days a year for him to write the more
balanced, deep and detailed account on which Tolkien
pretended to base his work.

Even the act of writing has to be isolating in the
Shire, where people don’t care to change at all, much
less figure out how one has changed, and
introspection is not part of their culture. (Even
among humans it can be isolating: I don’t know how
your family and friends have treated your writing, but
mine has been mistaken both for some kind of
anti-social obsession and for a willful waste of
talent that could be applied to making a living.) Sam
would logically regard writing as a continuation of
Bilbo’s work, which Frodo promised to carry out; and,
if (as is likely) he suspected it meant something more
to Frodo, it wouldn’t be like him to demand an
explanation, only to wait for one,

I think it likely that Tolkien incorporated some
experience of what was then called shell-shock into
Frodo, however the essential part retained is the
survivor’s inability to be at home in what once was
home. He kept the framework, the relationship between
survivor and society, but changed the content to
something less familiar and more interesting.

rabidsamfan:

Whether or not Frodo’s last year in the Shire is spent in guilt, pain, or some kind of spiritually new place, the most noticeable symptom is his withdrawal from the community. I don’t see how Sam could read that as anything but “bad”, given how very much the hobbits measure themselves and their lives by their places in that community. Each time Frodo said, “You go along, Sam. I’ll stay home this time,” Sam would have felt a measure of consternation. On “good days” Frodo puts on his Elven cloak and goes to the special occasion with Sam. On “bad days” he sends Sam alone, or avoids visitors and allows letters to pile up unanswered.

While I agree that Frodo has reached a different place than Sam, in spite of the fact that they travelled together, I think the text still can be read to see him as damaged goods after the quest. When Arwen gives him the gem and her place on the ship she does so saying “If your hurts grieve you still, and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West until all your wounds and weariness are healed.” The next bit of evidence lies in Frodo’s words to Gandalf at the Ford of Bruinen. “Where shall I find rest’” is an odd question to ask for someone who has just left the house of Elrond, which is such a perfect place to rest on the trip outwards. Certainly, the Shire as they found it was not a place where resting was possible – and in fact, Frodo was thrust into a leadership position for which he has little or no training when he gets dubbed Deputy Mayor. Saruman also sees the damage in Frodo and says as much.

But for me, of course, the strongest evidence comes from Sam, and it comes in his reaction to the discovery that Frodo is leaving with Bilbo. He doesn’t say “no, how could you,” or “don’t go where I can’t follow,” he says, “And I can’t come.” It is that perception and acceptance of Frodo’s decision that betrays Sam’s relief at no longer being responsible for a task he cannot do.

For the sake of the drabble, I was also looking at that final chapter with an eye to which hobbit wrote which paragraph. Rather than recognizing that Tolkien the author is telling us what happens, I started by playing the game that it is Tolkien the translator who is conveying to us the story as written by hobbits of the Shire with, perhaps, a little fancy pointing of his own. So who tells us that Sam is perfectly happy with only a minor worry – Sam, who knows his own experience’ Or Frodo, who wants it to be true’

If it’s Frodo writing that, then the drabble follows easily. For the sake of writing the Red Book, he has already stayed a year past when Elrond first intended to take Bilbo across the sea, and chances are the pressure of finishing by his birthday has been a bit of a strain. And as for Sam knowing what Frodo dreams about -- Frodo talks in his sleep, you know. (He certainly did at Rivendell, and probably in Ithilien. How else did that minstrel know what to sing about when he and Sam had only just wakened’) Of course, the entire drabble is dependent from the beginning on the hypothesis (proven or not) that Frodo is leaving the Shire because he needs to find healing in the West, rather than on the idea that he has morphed into a different sort of spiritual being, so it’s sort of a moot point to say that Sam wouldn’t notice the “cracks” of damage and try to pretend them away because Frodo wasn’t damaged. What the drabble attempts to reveal are the insights which lead Sam to being dismayed rather than despairing at the moment when he realizes that Frodo is going to leave.

Other, minor responses:

>While Sam doesn't have the healing skills of Elrond
or Aragorn available to him, he also doesn't have the
kind of fatalistic nature that Frodo does.

Another motive for not accepting Frodo’s lack of
attachment to the Shire: Sam’s happiness would be to
live in the Shire with Frodo, not to have the two
loves of his heart sundered by time and distance. He
isn’t going to easily accept that Frodo needs to
leave, be he sick or well.

Well, two problems with that, if not more. The first is that Frodo’s idea of Sam’s happiness and Sam’s idea of Sam’s happiness are not necessarily identical. Frodo believes that Sam needs to be whole, not “torn in two”, and Rosie and the baby are in a kind of competition with Frodo for Sam’s heart. That’s baloney, of course, but Frodo’s got a self-sacrificing martyr complex after spending all that time expecting to die to save the world, so of course he’s going to give way to Sam’s wife and child. Writing the Red Book would only remind him of that intention of sacrifice, by the way. And it’s not like Frodo hasn’t got a bit of “torn in two” himself. Bilbo’s going with Elrond, and Gandalf too, and Frodo loves both of them dearly. Perhaps if Arwen had not offered Frodo the opportunity to go as well, he would have accepted those losses, but having the choice it may seem to him that he solves both Sam’s and his own divided heart to go.

>It's not like him to give up, so all he can do is try
the best he knows how. He reads Frodo far more clearly
than Frodo reads him

Where do you perceive Frodo not reading Sam clearly’
Does that change with time’

Frodo tells us as much. “I’m learning a lot about Sam Gamgee…” he says, when Sam recites poetry, and having never even suspected that Sam was among the conspirators even after Merry has spilled the beans. He is startled by Sam’s reaction to meeting Elves, to the point of looking for a physical change. And he tries to leave Sam behind at Rauros – although whether that’s a matter of not reading Sam’s heart aright or not reading his own I’m not as certain… It does change when they’re in Mordor, but it changes again in the Shire, because Sam hurls himself back into the present and life of the Shire while Frodo turns back to the (necessary) task of recording the events of the Quest and the past.

>(for all that Sam usually wears his heart on his
sleeve) so at least a part of him has had to notice
that Frodo's not really getting better.

He notices a change and it makes him a little anxious.
The rest is interpretation but not Sam’s
interpretation.

No, it’s mine. *grin*

>There were probably good days and bad days,

There is a lot of fannish multiplication of the bad
days, however the text is pretty explicit, even
listing Frodo’s few bad days in the Tale of Years.

Again, see my definition of “bad” above. Frodo doesn’t have to be miserable for Sam to think of it as a bad day – he just has to be acting in a way that isolates him from other hobbits. And of course, we’re disagreeing about damage here. Although you’re right about fanfic emphasizing the bad times over the good, which also can be frustrating. I’m quite certain that Frodo didn’t go around looking forlorn and lost all the time or he’d have ended up being dosed with castor oil.

>He's the sort that gets up and faces the day, and
puts aside his worries when he can't do anything about
them but hope. The Gaffer taught him that much anyway.

I think that to a certain degree Sam’s attitude is
inborn, and nurtured by Bilbo’s tales of persistence
and unexpected triumph, as well as by the Gaffer.

Perhaps. But that “get up and haul the water” attitude is more practical than Bilbo strikes me.

>And I think that Frodo would be trying to hide his
pain from Sam, not wanting to shadow his happiness,

. . .based on the unproved assumption that Frodo is
often in pain. I find it more likely that he is
trying to explain himself to himself, after which he
can explain himself to Sam. However, knowing that he
may likely leave the Shire forever, Frodo does not
want that likelihood to distract Sam from Sam’s own
path and life longer than is necessary. Therefore
Frodo would not say anything in advance.

Back to hypothesis A… Frodo hides his intentions, and when he is in pain (in March) he does his best to hide that too so as not to distract Sam from his family.

>and Sam would be trying to oblige Frodo by being
happy.

I find it likely that the renewal of the Shire and the
founding of a family give Sam quite a bit to be happy
about. Even though no one in the Shire will ever
understand him, and Frodo (the individual he most
loves) is gone, the Shire is still the home he loves
and wants to stay in.

Sam has plenty to be happy about, certainly. That doesn’t stop him from having things he grieves for, no more than it does anyone else. Don’t do him the disservice of assuming that simple words mean simple feelings!

Well, this was fun. Would you mind terribly if I posted it into my journal with a note of explanation of how it came about’

rabidsamfan:

< Sam would have felt a measure of consternation.>

eykar:

Sam would understand Frodo’s separateness from the Shire because he shared it. Both knew that the people around them had neither the desire nor the ability to understand the quest; they would have only each other with whom to share the most significant memories of their lives (like old guys who live for their VFW meetings, whether war stories are traded there or not.) Sam’s concern would not be about Frodo’s well-understood isolation but about his not balancing it by forging a new bond with the Shire, as Sam did.

<While I agree that Frodo has reached a different place than Sam, in spite of the fact that they travelled together, I think the text still can be read to see him as damaged goods after the quest. When Arwen gives him the gem and her place on the ship she does so saying “If your hurts grieve you still, and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West until all your wounds and weariness are healed.” >

Arwen didn’t have the authority to grant Frodo, or anyone, the right to sail west; that grace is granted by a higher authority, either the Valar (the gods of ME) or most likely Illúvatar (God.) Arwen could offer only her abandoned place beside Elrond on a particular ship, along with a bit of light for protection until Frodo either died in ME or sailed (on that ship or a later one.)

Frodo’s actions immediately preceding his departure, like so many others, are never explained: He writes, he finishes writing, he concludes whatever he needs to from what he has written, and he leaves. He undoubtedly has multiple motives for so doing, of which the prospect of (regularly scheduled, twice annual) wounds and weariness is only one and (to my mind) not the most important.

Most of the recorded discussion leading up to Frodo’s departure concerns Bilbo, who isn’t going to last much longer in Middle Earth, and who would have no other of his kind in Aman if Frodo didn’t go with him. (JRR says it’s true of Frodo, but it’s true of Bilbo, too.)

I can find no reason not to accept as the truth Frodo’s telling Sam that “The Ringbearers should go together.”

It is the kind of question one would expect of him on that day, Oct. 6 (or on March 13.) It’s as if he had two religious fast days a year. (“And ye shall afflict your living selves,” the Bible orders.) The rest of the time he does not express such sentiments. The assumption that he feels but suppresses them is only that – an assumption.

< Certainly, the Shire as they found it was not a place where resting was possible – and in fact, Frodo was thrust into a leadership position for which he has little or no training when he gets dubbed Deputy Mayor. >

How much training did he have for any part of the quest’ Compared to all he has recently been forced to do and learn, the largely honorary office of Deputy Mayor is a walk in the park!

Twisting it in his usual negatively-exaggerated Saruman way. Besides, he lies outright. He says that if his blood is “stains” the Shire it will “wither and never again be healed.” His blood is spilled and it is healed within a year. (One could however argue that since Grima did the killing the Shire was not “stained.”) His next prediction, that Frodo will have “neither health nor long life” is similarly splenetic and inaccurate. Frodo sails alive to the Undying Lands, where mortals who are admitted die only at a time of their own choosing, in a state of estel (hope.) Assuming, as seems probable, that he is waiting when Sam eventually arrives, he lives at least another 62 years, which he could have lived in the Shire had he seen sufficient reason to do so. I find no reason to take Saruman’s claim about health as any more accurate than the rest of his venting.

< he says, “And I can’t come.” It is that perception and acceptance of Frodo’s decision that betrays Sam’s relief at no longer being responsible for a task he cannot do.>

An equally reasonable (and less convoluted) interpretation is that Sam wants to go with Frodo but realizes that he was not invited and now has other attachments to keep him in ME. Frodo’s response, that Sam’s “time may come” fits this meaning.

< So who tells us that Sam is perfectly happy with only a minor worry – Sam, who knows his own experience’ Or Frodo, who wants it to be true’>

Both, as Sam fills those last pages with his deeper understandings over the years, having only the book (and later Elanor) with whom to discuss any of these matters. (I think that the description of Frodo’s arrival in the Undying Lands was written by Frodo, with a glimmering of foreknowledge, to reassure Sam.)

<. And as for Sam knowing what Frodo dreams about -- Frodo talks in his sleep, you know. >

I’ve heard people talking in their sleep; reconstructing the whole dream from such muttered fragments is impossible without confirmation when the sleeper awakes.

<(He certainly did at Rivendell,>

Gandalf had Sam, Merry, Pippin and Aragorn to provide the factual framework to allow him to read Frodo’s “mind and memory.” Frodo’s sleep talking provided emotional content.

< and probably in Ithilien. How else did that minstrel know what to sing about when he and Sam had only just wakened’)>

Nowhere is it stated that the Gondorian song about Frodo of the Nine Fingers contains more than a summary of the quest reconstructed from the information available to waking people. It is clear to everyone that Frodo and Sam made it to Mount Doom and that the Ring was there destroyed, which is very likely as much detail as the song contained on the subject.

< What the drabble attempts to reveal are the insights which lead Sam to being dismayed rather than despairing at the moment when he realizes that Frodo is going to leave.>

I can accept it as meaningful within its own AU but not within LoTR as written – typical of fanfic writers, other than the few, including yourself, who consistently write at least short pieces that are true to the published text.

Other, minor responses:

<Frodo believes that Sam needs to be whole, not “torn in two”, and Rosie and the baby are in a kind of competition with Frodo for Sam’s heart. >

Not “Rosie and the baby” but the Shire, of which his family is part and expression, and which has never been and will never be large enough to contain Sam. Sam is, by his own account, torn between going where Frodo goes and staying in the only place he wants to be in.

The baby is not only Sam’s with Rose, but Sam’s with Frodo. Frodo names her, for a flower that Rose has never seen, and she grows up to inherit the Red Book, all that is left of him in ME. In the Epilogue, she is quite content to imagine accompanying Sam in sailing west to join Frodo, without a thought for her abandoned mother. (Kids can be that way, and I should hope that in the event she would be more considerate!)

<That’s baloney, of course, >

No, it’s intrinsic to Sam’s nature, and would have been true if Frodo had never been born. The quest gave Sam a chance to develop the greater-then-the-Shire possibilities that were always in him, that worried his Gaffer and made him aware of walking trees in the Northfarthing and Elves in the woods.

< Writing the Red Book would only remind him of that intention of sacrifice, by the way. >

It would also give a framework within which to contemplate what he had already sacrificed, and what he gained, and what to do with what he gained. Hobbits are, as Gandalf points out, remarkably resilient creatures.

Of course. That’s why he says “It will feel like that, I’m afraid. But you will be healed. You were meant to be solid and whole and you will be.”

This quote is further interesting because it gives a definition to “healed” that has nothing to do with the Nazgul or Shelob: It goes back to the original etymology, defining “healed” as “made whole.” The opposite of “healed” is not being wounded or sick, but being “torn in two” – as Frodo hopes Sam will not be but expects to be himself; he will always miss the life of the Shire that he hoped to but could not re-enter. In that sense I can find the term meaningful –very differently from the way it is usually used.

<Bilbo’s going with Elrond, and Gandalf too, and Frodo loves both of them dearly. Perhaps if Arwen had not offered Frodo the opportunity to go as well, >

See above; she did not have the power to make that offer. However the offer was made by those who could make it, and Frodo had a choice about leaving, as did Bilbo. Bilbo was ready for another adventure. I suspect that Frodo was too, to the extent that he was a kindred spirit, although his feelings were more mixed due to his having to give up a hoped-for future.

Defining “healing” as above, and taking all else into account, this makes a lot of sense.

<eykar:
Where do you perceive Frodo not reading Sam clearly’
Does that change with time’

Rabidsamfan:

These events are early in the quest, when Frodo is only beginning to notice Sam.

It’s a matter of trying to save Sam’s life. One of my other friends (I can’t find the quote right now) has written in some detail that Frodo didn’t accept Sam’s willingness to sacrifice his future until after being captured at Cirith Ungol. Only in discovering that the quest could not be fulfilled by Frodo’s sole sacrifice did he stop hoping to, at some point, abandon and thus save Sam. (Another of my friends grumbles that it wasn’t until this point that JRR appreciated Sam’s worth!)

It changes but not back to what it was. Having lived for so long as virtually one person in two bodies, they cannot return to not knowing each other. The Shire imposes its social roles and they try find a way to reinvent themselves; thus Frodo gives Sam and Rose a place to live and makes Sam his heir, creating a recognizable family configuration; at the same time, they (with Rose’s passive assent or active collusion) act as a couple naming their first child together, a hidden family configuration.

I have found it useful to compare Frodo’s and Sam’s post-quest life in the Shire to the biblical story of Ruth and Naomi, who constitute themselves as a family even though they have no legal claim on each other, because of a shared spiritual commitment. At the end, Ruth’s loyalty is rewarded with a virtuous but unsexy husband, who provides her with a child, which she immediately turns over to Naomi. Naomi acts as a mother figure to Ruth, but Ruth, in bearing a child for Naomi, acts as a wife-figure to her. This confusion, scrambling and stretching of family roles is repeatedly presented in the bible as necessary to bring redemption to the world. I doubt that the story of Ruth was among JRR’s intended models, but it was part of his background culture.

which needs him now, as Frodo did during the quest. However the Shire (especially in the person of the Gaffer) was always in his heart during the quest, and Frodo will always be in his heart in the Shire.

And to a certain degree of self-sufficiency: He is finally doing something that he can do without Sam, although not without asking about and recording Sam’s memories.

<. I’m quite certain that Frodo didn’t go around looking forlorn and lost all the time or he’d have ended up being dosed with castor oil. >
LOL

< But that “get up and haul the water” attitude is more practical than Bilbo strikes me.>

Right, the work ethic was from dad. The hope unquenchable was inborn and doubly nurtured.

< Frodo hides his intentions, and when he is in pain (in March) he does his best to hide that too so as not to distract Sam from his family.>

And he hides his intention of leaving for the same reason. However neither constitutes the kind of heroic effort that a lot of writers seem to imagine.

I never intend to do so and hope that I haven’t inadvertently given that impression. Sam is one of Tolkien’s greatest and most complex characters.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

Of course, Eykar had the last word, just before I posted this, and I've got to get some sleep tonight, but I'll comment back on one point...

Arwen didn’t have the authority to grant Frodo, or anyone, the right to sail west.

Sez who? She's being awfully unkind if she doesn't, and she certainly implies that she has the right. (Or has already acquired the right.) And why would she bother if she didn't think that the evidence indicated that Frodo would need that kind of healing. Her father is one of the great healers of Middle Earth, after all, and by the time she's speaking to Frodo would have had time to observe the hobbits.

No, I'm afraid you'll just have to admit that the text supports the idea that Frodo is damaged by what he's done. ;)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

I'd already posted a comment in Eykar's LJ earlier, but I'll re-post it here. Hope that's okay with you.

Glad you two decided to share your conversation with the rest of us! :) I hope you don't mind if I comment somewhat randomly...

Even Tolkien’s famous letter #246, which refers to Frodo’s ‘dark times coming upon him’ and bringing ‘unreasoning self-reproach’ supplies no reason to think that these dark times are anything other than the two anniversaries. (I think of the letters as Tolkien's LoTR fanfic rather than as canon.)

I've just been rereading Tolkien's letters, and it's interesting to see how his views of LOTR change and evolve over time. I'm not sure what to make of this particular letter though. It's preserved in draft (so the letter that was actually sent, if it was, may have been quite different) and contradicts the text of LOTR at several points. For instance, when Tolkien comments that 'Bilbo was the person Frodo loved most' -- whereas Frodo himself says otherwise, in TTT, when he calls Sam 'dearest of hobbits', which firmly assigns Bilbo the second place. It's also the only text in which Tolkien ever mentions Frodo's feelings of "guilt" and claims that Frodo "still desired" the Ring after the Quest. (Still in this context makes me pause as much as desired does.) And of course it's also this same draft in which Tolkien calls Sam 'vulgar', narrow-minded, 'possessive' etc., with a distinct touch of upper-class snobbism.

Anyway (before I ramble too much!), I agree with what you say about Frodo post-quest, especially this: His lack of a bond with the Shire is the primary reason for his leaving Middle Earth, sufficient with or without any illness.

Frodo had deep ties to the Shire, no less than his hobbit companions, and to discover that they've slipped away must be profoundly painful for him. Your definition of 'healing' makes perfect sense to me.

How much training did he have for any part of the quest’ Compared to all he has recently been forced to do and learn, the largely honorary office of Deputy Mayor is a walk in the park!

True, and I should think that having been Master of Bag End for 17 years prepared him for it as well.

There's *much* more to say about all the fascinating questions you two bring up, but for the time being I'll leave it at that. (I'm probably running out of space here, too. ;)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Arwen didn’t have the authority to grant Frodo, or anyone, the right to sail west.
Sez who?

Tolkien wrote about it in much detail in letter 246 (though since I just mentioned in my other post that the letter contradicts the text of LOTR in parts, you may decide to ignore this explanation for the same reason ;). What he writes is that Arwen 'put in a plea' for Frodo with Gandalf (and perhaps Galadriel) and that she used her own renunciation of immortality to support her argument. But the ultimate authority resides with the Valar, and only Gandalf is in a place to 'speak for them', in Middle-earth.

Outside of this letter, there's the fact that admitting half-elven individuals (Eärendil and his descendants) into Aman required a decree from Manwë in the Silmarillion, and I think the same would apply for full mortals.

As for Frodo being 'damaged' after the quest, that's certainly true (of him and Sam both), but it doesn't amount to a permanent state of suffering. As surprising as it is after everything they've gone through, there's no hint of that in Ithilien or Minas Tirith. Frodo seems to be fine until October 6 comes around, and then recovers within a day. All in all, I think Arwen was wise to phrase her suggestion cautiously by saying "if you then desire it".

I'll shut up now! I'm being way too chatty tonight. :)

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

Wow...what an interesting discussion... i have to reread more to contribute more but here are some initial thoughts...

i think there is a psychiatric spin to why Frodo does not feel at home anymore in the Shire. The Ring being one of the reasons for his wanting to leave the Shire and to try to seek healing and peace in Valinor. Feeling no more attachment to the Shire could be as eykar said, due to lost in attachment to the Shire, but a more convincing reason is due to the loss of the Ring and the feeling that he has indeed failed on the Quest. Much angst fanfics explore this and it doesn't seem to be wrong in thinking this way, (i think) because Frodo did go through an intensely horrible time with an incredibly evil thing around his neck...

I really like this essay by Karen Milos which discusses Frodo's reasons for leaving Middle-Earth.. i found it really sad but very true to her point...

http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html

meanwhile..i'm going to rereard this entry... great discussion,

eykar and

rabidsamfan =)

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

For instance, when Tolkien comments that 'Bilbo was the person Frodo loved most' -- whereas Frodo himself says otherwise, in TTT, when he calls Sam 'dearest of hobbits', which firmly assigns Bilbo the second place.

I think Frodo cares for both very much. I mean Sam went with him to the end of the world ..and went with him in a mission of a great likelihood of death... of course he would say he was "dearest of hobits" at that time... but i feel like it's hard to compare Frodo's love to both of them... But i think Frodo was soothed in the fact that Sam could rejoin him in Valinor in the end...

It's also the only text in which Tolkien ever mentions Frodo's feelings of "guilt" and claims that Frodo "still desired" the Ring after the Quest.
But why wouldn't he still desire the Ring? Even though it is not made clear in the Grey Havens chapter whether he does or not, i would think that he still does because the Ring does have the power to make the bearer of it desire it. (Look what happened to the prior bearers of the Ring... especially Gollum :p ) The Ring is precious... no one in Middle Earth save Bilbo relinquished it without a struggle and because of the Ring's power, Frodo could not have come out of the Quest unchanged and un-traumatized by the longing that he still has for it....
Perhaps fanfic does dramatize the angsty feelings that Frodo has but it does seem logical that he would feel feelings of guilt.

Nice thoughts, caraloup =)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Thank you. :)

I agree that it's impossible to compare one love to the other, especially since they grow in so very different circumstances. I don't think Frodo ever changed his mind about Sam being the 'dearest of hobbits' after the quest, but of course that doesn't mean that he loved Bilbo less than he did before. Such things ultimately can't be quantified.

But why wouldn't he still desire the Ring?

Because he didn't desire it in the first place. He received it as a (seemingly innocent) gift from Bilbo, and there's only one passing moment -- when he fails to fling it into the fire at Bag End, as per Gandalf's instructions -- where he's influenced by its attractiveness and beauty. But once he realizes what exactly this thing is, and what kind of a burden it places on him, there's nothing resembling 'desire' anymore. That he's unable to let go of it, relatively late in the quest, when he's already in Mordor, shows how much the Ring has taken hold of him and inserted itself into Frodo's sense of self and purpose. But to call that 'desire' would be much the same as saying that an infected body 'desires' the virus.

Tolkien likens his 'failure' to give it up at the end to the response of someone who has been drained and broken by overpowering violence and torture, and in that sense, it's also different from Bilbo's difficulties of leaving the Ring to Frodo (without even knowing what it truly was, or ever having felt its full power). But why should anyone who has experienced such torture long for it when it's over? The Ring never provided Frodo with anything positive or desirable.

Gollum's story is completely different, too: He came into possession of the Ring by killing, out of desire for the thing. Then he was isolated from all company for centuries, with the Ring as his only 'companion', so of course he couldn't help but crave it. But Frodo is never alone in this way and can turn to Sam for companionship, even at the worst of times.

And there's another long ramble... but perhaps it explains why I'm so puzzled by Tolkien's late comments. There's no evidence for Frodo's 'desire' for the Ring in the text of LOTR, nor for any sense of guilt and failure on his part. Immediately after the quest, all we ever hear is that he's happy and relieved, and nothing about his 'spells' in October and March implies that he's struggling with the idea of having failed.

To experience guilt, Frodo would have to focus on the merely potential disasters that might have happened if Sauron had regained the Ring, and he would have to be far more obsessed with being the crucial figure and the 'hero' of the quest than he ever was before. Yet his humility is a main reason why he was able to resist the Ring for so long, and it seems strange to me to think that he'd suddenly develop a far greater ego in the aftermath. The important thing is that the Ring was destroyed, and Frodo himself knows best that he'd reached the absolute limits of his strength by the time they reached the fire.

Okay, now I'm really done... ;)

From:

elycia.livejournal.com

This discussion is fascinating and thought-provoking and perfectly wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing!

It certainly never occurred to me to wonder how the minstrel was able to write the lay of Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom while the primary protagonist was unconscious. Now I'll be pondering that one for days.

From today's perspective, Frodo often strikes me as suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, which not only was grossly misunderstood in Tolkien's Day, but was euphemistically called "Battle Fatigue" and ascribed only to combat-seasoned soldiers. People with PTSD don't necessarily dwell on their trauma 365 days/yr., but they *are* prone to very disturbing and realistic flashbacks, which can be triggered by any number of things (such as anniversaries). A common secondary effect of PTSD is a strong sense of detachment from so-called "normal" life, which Frodo seems to experience. Part of me wonders whether WWI veteran Tolkien knew something of PTSD, from personal experience or that of his war buddies, and (deliberately or not) wrote Frodo to show some characteristics of a sufferer.

I find it curious that Merry, who suffers wounds on a par with Frodo's for potentially lethal consequence (the orc-wound to the head and the injuries from his attack on the Witch-King), seems to make a full recovery (both physical and mental). In the Houses of Healing, Aragorn says, "He is weary now, and grieved, and he has taken a hurt like the Lady Eowyn, daring to smite that deadly thing. But these evils can be amended, so strong and gay a spirit is in him. His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom." (Emphasis mine)

Perhaps Tolkien is saying that Merry's cheerful nature better prepares him to handle his memories appropriately so that he can take joy in later life, but I rather doubt it. Despite the many similarities in Frodo and Merry's experience (both are kidnapped and tortured by Orcs; both are wounded by the Witch-King; and Merry has to watch the deaths of those dear to him, including Boromir and Theoden, into the bargain), there is the one significant difference: The Ring. We see no mention of Merry going to pieces every March 15 on the anniversary of the Battle of Pelennor, yet Frodo believes, in the throes of his pain on October 6, that his wound will *never* heal. ("Never" is a very serious word in this usage.) He cannot recover as Merry has recovered, though both were healed by the same Healer using, presumably, similar techniques. I think we must assume that the long guardianship of the Ring has altered Frodo's perceptions and psyche permanently, and not for the better. The "wheel of fire" that dominated his spirit and his vision for so many days apparently continues to subdue his will to joy and suppress his interest in society at large even after the Shire has begun a robust recovery from the Troubles.

My own personal feeling is thus: I believe Frodo was happy to accompany Bilbo, but I don't think he had any concern that Bilbo would be happy as the only Hobbit among Elves, given that Bilbo had *chosen* such a life for twenty years prior to leaving ME. I think Frodo left because he despaired of living a life defined by the "flatness" and sensory and emotional deprivation of PTSD; and because he genuinely feared that he would suck the joy out of Sam and/or Sam's family as the years went on. (The second reason is the ONLY justification I can come up with for hurting Sam like he does; if nothing else, it keeps me from wanting to beat the little punk bloody :D).

Okay, I'll shut up now. But this is a WONDERFUL discussion!

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

I read it some time ago and was not convinced by her arguments. This is the beginning of an LJ post dated 5/25/4 explaining why:

Having read Karyn Milos essay on PTSD, Too Deeply Hurt, http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html,
I then reread the last few chapters of RoTK. I conclude that her use of Tolkien's text was selective and not entirely accurate.
I do think that Tolkien meant to write about PTSD as a spiritual path, but he transposed it from human to hobbit.
It is quite clear from the reaction of Shire folk that while Merry's and Pippin's adventures are marginally comprehensible to them, and much admired, Frodo's are not. However it is not true that Frodo has no one to talk about the quest with. He and Sam are still together, and they talked about every aspect of the quest while engaged in it. More than that, they created together the language in which it could be talked about. Sam would feel the same need as Frodo to process what they both experienced, in the language they created. There is no reason to think that their quality of communication has changed.
As to whether Frodo's memories slowly undermine him, Tolkien's answer seems to be Yes and No. Since they are living together and Sam, who knows Frodo best, feels only a "vague anxiety" about him, Frodo cannot be terribly changed. (Since Tolkien didn't write their daily interactions, we have to work backwards from what he did write.)
However Tolkien also makes it clear that before Frodo and Sam even return to the Shire, Frodo doesn't really expect to be at home there ever again. (This repeats my last post:) In Many Partings, Frodo accompanies every reference to returning to the Shire with mention of Bilbo. Leaving Rivendell, he thinks of the Sea, and Elrond pretty much promises to bring Bilbo to him. At the beginning of Homeward Bound, when he asks, "where shall I find rest?" there is no answer.
Frodo spends his last months in Middle Earth writing an accurate history of the Wars of the Ring and setting Sam up to live the life Frodo would never experience. When he has finished writing, he replies to Sam's "You have nearly finished it," with "I have quite finished." He then leaves with Bilbo: "The ring-bearers should go together." I don't think that Frodo ever seriously expects to return home, except in so far as Bilbo was his home. He accepts himself all along as changed by the quest and bound to and by his memories.
Having one person to talk with isn't the same as having public recognition, but I am not convinced that public recognition matters. If anything, I think Frodo would prefer not to seek it, since if the people of the Shire put together a tale of Frodo it would be no more accurate than their tales of Bilbo repeatedly putting on his magic ring, becoming invisible, and returning with treasure. Frodo is dedicated to recording the most accurate record possible, not to promoting folk-tales among people whose limits he knew before ever setting out.
Perhaps one reason Frodo has to leave is to be with people who share his frame of reference, even though that means Sam will have no one with whom to share his memories of the quest. Sam, thanks to his dual nature, can still live in Middle Earth and wait for his old age before joining Frodo and the others who understand what he went through.

There's more but this is all I can fit in a reply. Since then I have become less comfortable with the use of the term PTSD at all in an LoTR context, largely because the PTSD guys at the VA are not at all capable of the kind of sustained effort, civil behavior, and rational planning that characterize Frodo's last months in the Shire.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

I've read your essay on your LJ replying to the Karyn Milos essay and since it is late for me 2:30 am (yeah i know..you've slept later than this ;), just wan to ask a brief question: so would you think that Frodo's reason for departing from Middle-Earth has everything to deal with him becoming more "spiritual" and "ethereal" in the context that he has done more in Middle-Earth than anyone can do, therefore is granted a passage into which he could reside as one of the higher folk ever to grace Middle-Earth? Perhaps because of being at Mt. Doom, being lifted by Eagles to safety, doing something that none ever thought possible has made him different, more special so that he deserves more in which the Shire cannot give?

I agree with what you said about Karyn Milos being selective in her quotes she used and also that we seem to choose illness as the reason for Frodo's departure because illness is familiar to us and other reasons may not be.~

::shutting up with the rambling and going to bed:: :P (more tomorrow ;)

From:

lame-pegasus.livejournal.com

"(...) But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir; all all that I had and might have had I leave to you."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion I have been deeply hurt clearly means that he suffered, and if you ask me, not only in October and in March. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that this suffering is often stretched by FF-writers to an extend that has nothing to do with the Tolkien original any more, but he suffered nonetheless. Tolkien didn't mention it, but his characterization of Frodo is rather vague, opposite to that of Sam. And concerning the letters... of course his feelings for his story change with the ongoing of the years. He was tremendously surprised by the enormous feedback he got, the tons of letters, the heaps of requests for explanation. And thus he was forced to turn the LOTR- figures again and again in his hands. And it is a understandable process that his own view on Frodo and Sam changed with the time, and that he often had to figure out completely new why they did what they did during and after the quest.

Anyway... what happened to Frodo was not really a mysterious transformation into a kind of elvish being. He was hurt, and he suffered, and he saw the roots that held him in the Shire loosen and rip one by one. That must have been extremely painful for him. He is still a hobbit in the end, though a rather uncommon one. Sometimes I see him portrayed as a kind of Christ-like character, but he isn't either. The fact that he stays so "human" (or hobbit, if you like) during all the changes he is going through, makes him convincing and believable to me, and it is perhaps the most important reason why I love the Master of Bag End for nearly 25 years now.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

I hope you could sleep late this morning. I try to close my eyes before 2:30 AM, but don't always succeed. This is especially annoying since LoTR (or something) has made me into an early riser.

< so would you think that Frodo's reason for departing from Middle-Earth has everything to deal with him becoming more "spiritual" and "ethereal >
I think that the basic reason could be stated that way. His reward is to find his proper place in Arda, which is no longer among mortals, even though he remains mortal.

< in the context that he has done more in Middle-Earth than anyone can do, >
It is not so much what he (and Sam) did, as the fact that doing it required an inner transformation. Both start as slightly unusual but recognizable hobbits of the Shire, which is to say happy if aimless people who are curious about wonders but have no conception of terrors. Facing all the harshness of the harsh world from which they have been protected all their lives, they are forced to develop spiritually. Examples are Sam's discovery of estel* and eternity, and their conception that they are carrying on the tale of Beren and thien, a Tale with a purpose which implies a Teller and thus gives meaning to their lives and struggles.

They love each other within a context of shared heroism and shared spiritual development. The Shire recognizes heroism, in at least its more ordinary and exciting forms, but has no need for spirituality. For this reason, neither Frodo nor Sam can any longer be entirely of the Shire.

Frodo is even more changed than Sam, because he was the vessel of prophecy throughout LoTR. One of my many several essay-germs includes discussing instances in which the unnamed entity that chose him as Ring-bearer uses the Ring to speak through him. This experience leaves him at the end with a gift of prophecy in its more trivial meaning, ability to predict the future; however Tolkien had to know that the word we render as "prophet" means more like "herald" or "messenger." Another Hebrew word entire is used for those who only foretell the future.

< therefore is granted a passage into which he could
reside as one of the higher folk ever to grace Middle-Earth? >
The grace to sail west seems to have been granted to all Ring-bearers, which means that among other things it serves as a reward. However as the Silmarillion states, mortals who enter the Undying Lands are in danger of burning up like moths getting too close a candle. My suspicion is that having to cope with the Ring initiates inner changes, conscious or unconscious, that make Frodo, Sam and Bilbo all more harmonious with eternity. (Gimli, the only dwarf ever to enter Aman alive, or possibly the only dwarf ever to enter Aman at all, needs an entirely separate consideration which to my knowledge JRR never gave him.)

< Perhaps because of being at Mt. Doom, being lifted by Eagles to safety, doing something that none ever thought possible has made him different, more special so that he deserves more in which the Shire cannot give? >
If he only deserved more, he could wait out his normal life span in the Shire and receive his reward at the end. I think that he not only deserves but, to grow further, needs something other than the Shire can offer. Sam, who can do more growing within the Shire, doesn't have to leave as soon, but he too will eventually finish his Middle-earthly life and seek out that dimly-perceived "something other" to be found only where the rain-curtain turns to silver glass and the Elven light never dies. (Oh, sniffle.)

Happy Monday.

* Estel - "Far above the Ephel Duath in the west the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft clear and cold,the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope, for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his mastes, ceased to trouble him." (RoTK, The Land of Shadow)

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

< It certainly never occurred to me to wonder how the minstrel was able to write the lay of Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom while the primary protagonist was unconscious. >
Do you think it contained any information that Gandalf couldn't have provided? If so, why?

< Part of me wonders whether WWI veteran Tolkien knew something of PTSD, from personal experience or that of his war buddies, and (deliberately or not) wrote Frodo to show some characteristics of a sufferer. >
I think that he transformed the detatchment from daily life, which is an essential part of PTSD, but used it to illustrate something deeper and yet less tangible

< continues to subdue his will >
What evidence or instance do you find of the Ring subduing Frodo's will post-quest?

< His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom." >
Do you mean to imply by this that Frodo's grief didn't teach him wisdom, in which case I wonder why you think so; or is that part of the quote along for the ride?

< suppress his interest in society at large even after the Shire has begun a robust recovery from the Troubles >
I think you are ignoring the fact that both Frodo and the Shire have changed, and not compatibly. Had the Shire he returned to been recognizable, he might have been pleased to stay longer, but there is no way to run the experiment.

< I don't think he had any concern that Bilbo would be happy as the only Hobbit among Elves, given that Bilbo had *chosen* such a life for twenty years prior to leaving ME >
In Middle-earth, Bilbo had the option of going back to visit the Shire, and the chance of receiving visitors from the Shire at Rivendell, as indeed he did. Aman is a place qualitatively different from Rivendell or anyplace else in Middle-earth, as well as a place of no return. Even if Bilbo expressed no anxiety on this score, Frodo, putting himself in Bilbo's place, would likely expect that he felt it.

< I think Frodo left because he despaired of living a life defined by the "flatness" and sensory and emotional deprivation of PTSD; >
I think that if life was flat for him, that was primarily because he needed to be repotted before he could flower. The Shire soil was wrong for him and Aman's soil was right.

< and because he genuinely feared that he would suck the joy out of Sam and/or Sam's family as the years went on. (The second reason is the ONLY justification I can come up with for hurting Sam like he does; if nothing else, it keeps me from wanting to beat the little punk bloody :D). >
Now I get it! You grin, but you mean it: "How could he do that to Sam?" Even more: "How could he do that to Sam unless motivated by intolerable suffering? Anything less would be selfish!" You want to keep your good opinion of Frodo so you think of him as intolerably damaged.

I think that Sam is more resilient than you may be giving him credit for, loves his home and family, and enjoys his 62 years of family life -- without ever ceasing to quietly wait for his life's next unfolding.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

Your question inspired me to send the following to CanonNoFanon Yahoo group.

This turns out to be a common misconception among people who haven't read the Silmarillion or the Letters. It is based on Arwen's telling Frodo (in RoTK, Many Partings,) “If your hurts grieve you still, and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West until all your wounds and weariness are healed.” This is taken as a transfer of her right to a place in the Unying Lands.

However in the Silmarillion, it takes Manwë's personal intervention to allow her ancestor, the half-Elvish half-mortal Eärendil to "step living upon the Undying Lands and yet live." (Manddos, in Of the Voyage of Eärendil) Manwë rules that both Eärendil and his wife Elwing, being of partly mortal descent, "shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands" but to them and "to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined." This right apparently extends through the generations to Arwen, but applies only to members of her family. No mention is made anywhere of its being transferable, nor is there any instance of its being transferred. When Arwen renounces her right, it is, based on the Tolkien's writings both published and unpublished, simply cancelled.

Tolkien in draft letter 246 supeculates that Arwen might have 'put in a plea' that Gandalf or Galadriel ask the Valar to allow Frodo, Bilbo and Sam access to the Blessed Realm. How seriously he took this speculation is hard to tell, as the letter doesn't seem to be available in final form. In any case, it limits Arwen's role to one of secondary petitioner on their behalf.

The fanon can actually be undermined more simply by asking this: If Frodo went in Arwen's place, in whose place did Bilbo and Sam go?

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

< own view on Frodo and Sam changed with the time, and that he often had to figure out completely new why they did what they did during and after the quest >

Because Tolkien had to interpret and reinterpret his own text so often, the Letters seem to me a kind of authorial fanfic, of secondary importance to the text, which remains fixed while interpretation swirls around it.

Of the entire context of Frodo's departure, people of current generations seem to gravitate to the easily-comprehensible "too deeply hurt" story, which is available in many versions, true and fictitious, all around us, rather than to the more interesting, and more delicately handled, spiritual story. (Perhaps this has something to do with the religious world-view in our time becoming so often blatantly murderous where it is taken seriously, and the vocabulary of sprituality becoming rootless and debased, with every kind of nonsense passed off as "ancient wisdom.") As far as I can see, imaginative lingering in pain only helps reinforce the existing pain of daily life, whereas finding the spiritual path through and beyond in literature it can help readers do the same in their lives.

< what happened to Frodo was not really a mysterious transformation into a kind of elvish being. >
By this do you mean to imply that only Elves among the races of Middle-earth were capable of spiritual development? How does this square with Frodo's being "so 'human,'" given that humans are capable of spiritual development? Do you find religious/spiritual people unconvincing in life?

Second question: What do you mean by "mysterious?" It can be used in both a religious sense and to indicate an incomprehensible event or process.

< He was hurt, and he suffered, and he saw the roots that held him in the Shire loosen and rip one by one. That must have been extremely painful for him >
He experienced both terrors and wonders. Terror alone is a boring story.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

< He was hurt, and he suffered, and he saw the roots that held him in the Shire loosen and rip one by one. He is still a hobbit >

Frodo's ability to form new relationships in Middle-earth was damaged beyond repair, as can be extrapolated from the fact that he forms none, but only says Goodbye a lot. His nature as a hobbit dictates that he would prefer to be among those with whom his relationships can still grow, a group which in the Shire consists of Sam, while in Aman it includes an as-yet unpredictable number of people in addition to the friends with whom he sails. I don't think that Frodo's continued existence in the Shire would have necessarily been a drain on Sam, but it would have been very hard on Frodo, because his ability to reconnect to the Shire was damaged while his other, strengthened abiities, would have had to remain unused.

From:

lame-pegasus.livejournal.com

By this do you mean to imply that only Elves among the races of Middle-earth were capable of spiritual development? How does this square with Frodo's being "so 'human,'" given that humans are capable of spiritual development? Do you find religious/spiritual people unconvincing in life?

No, absolutely not. I am sure that he also developed spiritually, and I don't think that religious or spiritual people are unconvincing (I'm a christian myself, and I sincerely hope that my life is at least sometimes convincing). But I think that the changes Frodo made came from the ring, and the ring was something evil. Therefore he had to endure a change of his inner being that made him lose his home and all he loved. Nonetheless you surely have a point when you state that this was a spiritual change, too. The whole quest could have made him bitter and full of hate, but it made him full of light instead. And Saruman's sentence: You have grown, Halfling proves this change. I only think the prize for this development was incredibly high.

Terror alone is a boring story.

Yes, indeed. And the whole story is not only terror,. it is also a great wonder. But still I am sure Frodo would have wished to stay the master of Bag End, living happily ever after in the Shire, writing some books and visiting the elves. And this longing keeps him from being a saint, and the fact that he has to leave still hurts me.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

I don' t think that Frodo is meant to be a saint, but neither do I think that all change in him is ascribed to the Ring. Unlike Gollum, who succumbed immediately to it, or Bilbo who could safely largely ignore it, Frodo had to actively resist it as it grew stronger with increasing proximity to its source. It is in this process of resistance, not caused by the Ring but necessary to accomplish its destruction, that constitutes his spiritual development (and Sam's, because Sam was an intrinsic part of that resistance.)

I think that if Frodo had been capable of creating new relationships in Middle-earth, he would have formed one with the Shire and been content to stay; however since that possibility was cut off, he had every reason to pursue life in a place where he could continue to grow rather than merely endure.

PS - If this grows up to be an essay, may I quote you?

From:

lame-pegasus.livejournal.com

Of course you may.

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

Sorry, you can't reject the letters as fanfic for the sake of saying Frodo isn't feeling guilt and then cite them to say that Arwen isn't giving Frodo her place. Especially not when it's the same letter. (Naner naner naner ;P)

The Silmarillion is a different matter of course, and as you know I haven't read it. But there is an important difference between the "going west" of Elrond and the Elves and the "going west" of the hobbits. The hobbits are only going for a visit. The others are going forever. Arwen's choice is hard because she and Elrond will never meet again. There is no hope of a heavenly reunion because they're taking wildly divergent paths. Bilbo, Sam and Frodo are taking a side trip, but will be eventually reunited with Rosie, Merry, Pippin and the other mortals. A tourist visa is not the same thing as a change of citizenship, and doesn't take the same kind of authority to obtain.

The statement that Frodo goes in Arwen's place isn't undermined by Bilbo and Sam's going, because (again, with the assumption that Frodo goes for the reasons Arwen identifies) they decide to go for a different reason. They are being honored, and they are honored at the ends of their lives, which is a pretty fancy gold watch if you ask me. (Besides for all I know, they take Elrohir and Elladan's places.)

Okay, now, fair's fair. I've cited textual instances that support the idea that Frodo is "damaged" by the quest. You cite some specific textual evidence that he is transformed into a different sort of spiritual being.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

< But there is an important difference between the "going west" of Elrond and the Elves and the "going west" of the hobbits. The hobbits are only going for a visit. >

There is no change of citizenship involved in any Elf's journey west; they are entitled from birth. Earendil's descendants, the half-Elven, have to make a choice, which could be considered a change of citizenship. However a tourist visa to Aman is much harder to obtain, and none was never issued except to the three Ring-bearers and Gimli.

Mortals were never intended to journey to Aman in life, but only after death, in which case they are restricted to Halls of Mandos where they wait to pass beyond the boundaries of Arda.

Beren died, went to the Halls of Mandos, and was released to live again as a mortal in Middle Earth because of Luthien's success in moving the Vala of the Dead to pity, which has never happened before or since. He was not allowed to walk living in the Blessed Realm.

Earendil's family are allowed to choose between the Elvish fate of entering Aman alive or dead, and the mortal fate of entering only in death. Elves who enter Aman dead go to the Halls of Mandos from some few of them eventually return to Middle-earth. Glorfindel is one such.

Mandos' objection to letting the half-mortal Earendil survive after setting foot in Arda is based on the fact that his doing so violated the fate he inherited from his mortal father, which is part of the basis of the universe. Therefore Manwe, the chief of the Valar, had to override Mandos' objection and make a new law, allowing him, his wife, and his parially-mortal descendants to choose an irrevocable Elvish fate, which allowed to enter living into the Undying Lands.

Earendil's mortality could be renounced because his mother was Elvish. Full mortals such as the Ringbearers have no such option. They need to enter as mortals or not at all, requiring an even greater alteration to their fate than was allowed to Earendil.

For a mortal to be allowed alive into Aman is not simply an honor; it is a restructing of the universe and can only be allowed by those with authority to structure the universe in the first place.

There is no indication in anything that Tolkien wrote of Elladan or Elrohir renouncing the right to sail West.

Nor is there any certainty that the hobbits will meet up with their loved ones after death. All that we know from Sam's thoughts in Shelob's lair is that at least one hobbit believes death is a "lonely journey." It is reasonable to assume that post-quest Elrond, Gandalf or somebody told Frodo and the others that they and their mortal loved ones can all expect to pass beyond the boundaries of Arda after death, but that doesn't necessarily mean to a reunion in heaven. Nobody in Arda ever mentions anything analogous to Heaven except Aman itself. Journeying beyond the boundaries of Arda means only a final voyage to the unknown.

I think I have been citing evidence of spiritual transformation all along, but perhaps not in an organized way. That will have to wait for a longer message, which will be the first draft of Essay #2 (something about PTSD being transformed into a spiritual path.)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Can I just chime in and say that I love this?

The whole quest could have made him bitter and full of hate, but it made him full of light instead.

That's the totally amazing part to me, and it's also a comfort, considering how much Frodo's realization that he couldn't stay in the Shire must have hurt him (and us, by extension). Anyway: thanks for writing this. :)

From:

lame-pegasus.livejournal.com

Thank you. Though I must confess it took me some years to see this. I was seventeen when I read LOTR first, and I was bitterly disappointed and angry after finishing the third book. I simply couldn't understand why he was "punished" with having to leave everything he had fought for.

And it is a part of the amazing depth of this tale that it teaches to see Frodo that way, and offers a comforting and soothing truth: There may be hard times, and they even may break you, but it it in your hand alone if you end as light or as darkness. And Frodo is light.

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

I don’t think that “consternation” is quite the right word, since it implies shock and surprise. Sam, ever realistic (although his perception reality is far wider than that of most hobbits,) would probably get used to Frodo’s anti-social habits pretty quickly, although they would cause him a continuing unease due to a half-articulate suspicion that Frodo’s half-attached life can’t last.
Sam would understand Frodo’s separateness from the Shire because he shared it. Both knew that the people around them had neither the desire nor the ability to understand the quest; they would have only each other with whom to share the most significant memories of their lives (like old guys who live for their VFW meetings, whether war stories are traded there or not.) Sam’s concern would not be about Frodo’s well-understood isolation but about his not balancing it by forging a new bond with the Shire, as Sam did.

I chose "consternation" quite deliberately as it means a kind of paralyzing dismay -- that horrible state of being afraid and not knowing either how to express it or understand the reason for it. I doubt very much that Sam understood Frodo's seperateness, because quite frankly he doesn't share it. He's impatient with the hobbits for not wanting to hear the story about the Ring, and not giving Frodo the honor he is due, so in that sense he's a bit apart, but it doesn't seem to stop him from directing clean up crews, or finding a wife, or taking care of his father, or going out and about and somehow earning the respect of his peers. Sam's solution to his problems is to buckle down and get busy -- and he is busy all that year.

I can find no reason not to accept as the truth Frodo’s telling Sam that “The Ringbearers should go together.”

Then why do you doubt him a few paragraphs later when he tells Sam that he's "too deeply hurt" to stay? The two statements do not deny each other. Frodo needs healing, he can only get it across the sea, and if he's going to go, then why not go at the same time as Bilbo? And consider the next part of his statement very carefully... "when things are in danger, some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." What danger is there to the Shire at that point? The Ring is gone, the King is crowned, and even Saruman is no longer in a position to cause mischief. How is Frodo's absence going to make anything or anyone safer? Or to phrase it differently, how is Frodo presence going to cause harm? It can't and won't unless something is seriously awry with Frodo.

It is the kind of question one would expect of him on that day, Oct. 6 (or on March 13.) It’s as if he had two religious fast days a year. (“And ye shall afflict your living selves,” the Bible orders.) The rest of the time he does not express such sentiments. The assumption that he feels but suppresses them is only that – an assumption.

If the only sign of damage is the anniversary pain of his woundings (and please note, he doesn't mumble about getting attacked by orcs when Farmer Cotton finds him that March, he mumbles about being deprived of the Ring) it wouldn't be a big deal for him to stay. Two bad days a year? Sam could deal with that, and so could Frodo. But I just plain don't believe that the consequences of the Quest only bedevil Frodo twice a year. (In fact I know they don't. He had trouble passing Weathertop too, and that was at least a week later.)

I imagine him as being very much like the chimney of a hurricane lamp that is just starting to crack. There's light in there, and it shines, and you might be able to keep using it for years if you're cautious, but jostle it a little and the crack is going to grow. Put any pressure on it and it will shatter, cutting anything in its path.

more tomorrow...

more tomorrow...

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

Okay, betraying my ignorance here. Explain to me the differences between Aman, Valinor, and Tol Eressea, please. I thought the latter two were not strictly a different plane, as they were once accessible by normal ships, and now the "way" has been denied to anyone not on one of the Elven ships.

And while you're at it, clarify Arda and the Halls of Mandos. I figured that the mortals found each other in the Halls, until whatever the equivalent of judgement day is, so that Bilbo, Frodo and Sam will all go there sooner or later, when they choose to leave Valinor.

From:

elycia.livejournal.com

Do you think it contained any information that Gandalf couldn't have provided? If so, why?

Gandalf didn't even know Frodo was going to Mordor via Cirith Ungol--or that Gollum was along for the trip--until Faramir told him. Unless Frodo speaks very clearly and with remarkable chronological accuracy in his sleep, I find it hard to imagine how the Lay would have included details such as Shelob's attack, imprisonment in the orc-tower, the torment of marching with the orc-army, etc. (Of course, perhaps the Lay *didn't* include these things. RoTK doesn't offer much in the way of detail.)

What evidence or instance do you find of the Ring subduing Frodo's will post-quest?

I think it subdued his "will to joy." (Archaic term, yes; it may not mean what I intended it to mean.) From his lack of involvement in Shire activities to the fact that he would often clasp Arwen's jewel, I've come to believe that Frodo was perhaps not as despondent as he is often written in fanfic, but certainly not brimful of cheer, either.

Do you mean to imply by this that Frodo's grief didn't teach him wisdom, in which case I wonder why you think so; or is that part of the quote along for the ride?

I think the entire quote is telling. Certainly Frodo gained wisdom, but unlike Merry, he has paid for it in a loss of joy.

Had the Shire he returned to been recognizable, he might have been pleased to stay longer,

Perhaps; as you pointed out, there's no way to test the theory. But I find the change in Frodo far more significant than the change in the Shire. If an unrecognizable Shire is a catalyst for despair (or the desire to relocate), then surely it is Sam who should be the most traumatized of the four, with his gardener's love of the trees, gardens, and landscapes that "Sharkey" has destroyed so deliberately. But Sam does not despair; he jumps in with both feet to put things to rights as best he can. Frodo withdraws, perhaps feeling that the challenge is unanswerable (or above his own abilities). This sense of powerlessness is also typical of PTSD, for what it's worth.

Even if Bilbo expressed no anxiety on this score, Frodo, putting himself in Bilbo's place, would likely expect that he felt it.

I would agree with you if you were speaking of almost any other hobbit. I've never gotten the impression from reading LoTR that Frodo is particularly skilled at putting himself in ANY other hobbit's place (possibly excepting Gollum's, for obvious reasons--if you count Gollum as a hobbit).

Now I get it! You grin, but you mean it: "How could he do that to Sam?"

You bet I do! I was only partway through reading TTT when I saw RoTK for the first time, so I didn't know what was going to happen. The Grey Havens scene left me absolutely shattered (which is just beyond uncharacteristic for me--I have a perverse tendency to *laugh* at sad movie endings). The only way I could bear to so much as contemplate that scene (until somebody told me that it's not "the last ship" in the book) was to convince myself that Frodo left in large part to *protect* Sam (whether the assumption that Sam needed protecting was mistaken or not). Now that I've read the book, my take on Frodo's departure is a bit different--if anything, in the book he seems to give less credence to Sam's feelings, being more caught up in his own issues. I have to admit straightaway that I don't find this side of Frodo admirable or appealing, but once again, it fits with the PTSD-esque profile.

I agree completely that Sam is resilient (and stronger than even he realizes), but you've gotta be one tough customer to look at the broken heart plain on his face in the movie and not flinch. :-)

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

JRR 's terminology is enough to confuse a lot of people. .

Arda is the world in which all Tolkien's writings take place. It has its own creation, its own history, its own heaven and earth, its own gods, and its own doom. It is marred and tragic but may eventually be restored. In some incomplete stories it seems to eventually evolve into, or parallel to, our Earth. Outside Arda is God, who allows it to exist sort of within its little space-time bubble, the same as our universe does. (God's direct interventions in Arda are very few, and very subtle and seem generally to occur in relation to Frodo.)

Aman, the Blessed Realm, and the Undying Lands all refer to the same geographical area, which is part of Arda but not generally accessible from Middle-earth at the time of LoTR. Valinor and Tol Eressea are parts of this geographical area. It originally lay to the west of Middle-earth over the Sea. Later it came to exist in some sort of hyper-space, accessible only via a link that won't work for most users.

Valinor is the island (or possibly only part of the island) on which the Valar live. It contains the Halls of Mandos, where the Elvish and mortal dead wait for, respectively, the end of Arda and their departure beyond its boundaries. (There is some speculation that dwarves might have their own hall, but nothing conclusive.) Living High Elves (Noldor) live here as well.

Tol Eressea is another island, somewhat east of Valinor, on which more Elves live, along with assorted recipients of special grace. While LoTR doesn't specify this, somewhere in the Letters, JRR stated that this is where the transformed hobbits end up. Elves travel back and forth between the two islands, but I am not certain whether living mortals who are allowed to live on Eressea are permitted on Valinor or not.

Valinor, Tol Eressea, Elvehome, Tirion, Araman, Alqualonde, Tuna, Valmar and various other place names that correspond to nothing in Middle-earth are all contained within Aman. The names have a way of proliferating which is very confusing if you don't know the stories that give them significance.

After various unfortunate decisions on the part of certain First Age Elves, the Valar hid Aman and made it inacessible to anyone sailing from Middle-earth. After certain other, even more distressing events, they removed it entirely from contact with Middle-earth. It is accessible only via the Straight Road, which is reached by sailing west, assuming that one can find it. Elves have the inborn right to find it, however for mortals finding it requires special grace (and quite likely significant changes in their nature to permit them to survive in Aman.)

There is no equivalent of Judgement Day in Arda. Each individual is judged either at the time of death by Namo, the Vala of the Dead, or by the Valar as a group whenever they gather in the Ring of Doom.

Dead Elves stay in the Halls of Mandos either until the end of Arda or until they return to life in Middle-earth. Mortals stay for some unspecified period, for unspecified reasons, and the time of their stay is uncertain. My guess is that is depends on the individual's willingness to confront the Great Unknown.

There is no reason to think that Frodo, Sam or Bilbo will ever end up there. The special grace that allows mortals to live on Eressea allows them to die and pass beyond the boundaries of Arda at a time of their own choosing. Therefore they would have no cause to ever enter the Halls of Mandos.

Arda really is a whole world, and as complex as ours. I hope this helps explain some aspects of it.

From:

eykar.livejournal.com

Thanks for answering. Since this is turning into an essay (sooner or later) is it okay if I quote you?

I like the term "will to enjoy" although I don't think it describes the change in Frodo. As far as I can see, the damage he experienced was to his ability to form new bonds in Middle-earth. (I just posted a reply to rabidsamfan in my LJ which discussed some of the reasons.)

Sam is as traumatized as Frodo by the damage to the Shire; he's the one who calls it "worse than Mordor." However Sam is able to forge a new bond with the Shire, and Frodo can't. Sam's work of rebuilding for the future parallels Frodo's of writing about the past.

I don't think that PTSD, with its narrowly psychiatric definition, can begin to encompass the changes that made Frodo "in the world but not of it." (See my answer to rabidsamfan for more detail.)

>I've never gotten the impression from reading LoTR that Frodo is particularly skilled at putting himself in ANY other hobbit's place

Frodo sets out fairly oblivious to Sam, and outsmarted by his younger cousins, but during the quest, encountering and dealing with so many different kinds of people, he develops a much greater awareness of others. Bilbo is unique in being the kindred spirit (and only parent-figure) of whom Frodo has always been most aware.

>in the book he seems to give less credence to Sam's feelings, being more caught up in his own issues
Where do find this happening?

In both the book and the movie, Frodo's departure breaks Sam's heart. However I don't think that the movie adequately depicted the gift that enables him to go back and live his Middle-earthly life: The "sighs and murmurs of the Sea," which sink, with their promise of eternal connection and eventual reunion, "deep into his heart."

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

Because he didn't desire it in the first place. He received it as a (seemingly innocent) gift from Bilbo, and there's only one passing moment -- when he fails to fling it into the fire at Bag End, as per Gandalf's instructions -- where he's influenced by its attractiveness and beauty. But once he realizes what exactly this thing is, and what kind of a burden it places on him, there's nothing resembling 'desire' anymore.

You say he does not have any desire for it whatsoever.. but then why does he say "It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty"? when he had his first March illness? Wouldn't the Ring have affected him somewhat? I mean perhaps "desire" is too strong of a word to put it but i think he perhaps feel somewhat of an...addiction to it? I mean bookwise, the only evidence of him perhaps still wanting it is that quote but i cannot believe that such an evil thing as the Ring to have no effect to him at all. It has an effect on everyone who bore it and all of them were negative effects...

I don't think he develops an "ego" after the Quest but a feeling of being defeated... whether or not he felt like he was a moral failure we cannot tell from just interpreting the text of LotR, but if it were left to our own interpretation, i think he would've felt guilty for not destroying the Ring and also would kind of still want it, but not to say "desire", but perhaps feel like he wants it but really knows it is not something that should be thought of...

Perhaps my thinking is colored by the fanfic that is out there about his guilt and about him still "desiring" the Ring, but i feel like it does make logical sense that he feels some sort of attachment ... and that his leaving is because of bad memories from the Quest that will never cease to bother him.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

He experienced both terrors and wonders. Terror alone is a boring story.
THis is a very interesting comment and I would like to think that Frodo has grown from the experiences and lessons that he has gained from the Quest but also has lost his innocence, his old way of life in the Shire, and if PTSD still holds for a possible reason for his departure, then such an experience as going to the ends of the Earth could definitely cause him to feel that "there is no going back".

I'm rereading Letter 246 at the moment and am struck by the part in which Tolkien said "his suffereings were justly rewarded by the higest honor; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed"

Very interesting bit indeed... for it does put a new twist in thinking whether or not Frodo's leaving to Valinor should be thought of as a "reward" or as a way to "grow spiritually" (as you put it), or to escape the tormented thoughts that he still has from the Quest (in which lots of people think he still has, the result from many interpretations from fanfic ;)
I think both reasons could be possible, and there is further proof of his self-reproach though in Tolkien's interpretation from his letter though... so the argument that goes with him being "wounded and that he won't fully heal" is a fairly convincing one in my opinion...

::goes to read more before typing more::

great points you all have =)

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

Frodo is even more changed than Sam, because he was the vessel of prophecy throughout LoTR. One of my many several essay-germs includes discussing instances in which the unnamed entity that chose him as Ring-bearer uses the Ring to speak through him.

This is indeed a very encourging thought for my dear Ring-bearer :*) very nice thought~

I think that he not only deserves but, to grow further, needs something other than the Shire can offer.

perhaps..and it seems to me you tend to want to believe in a more optimistic view of why Frodo left to go to Valinor... It could be this reason, but i think it is more complex than his just "growing out of the Shire" so that he has to be "replanted" elsewhere... =)

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

I imagine him as being very much like the chimney of a hurricane lamp that is just starting to crack. There's light in there, and it shines, and you might be able to keep using it for years if you're cautious, but jostle it a little and the crack is going to grow. Put any pressure on it and it will shatter, cutting anything in its path.

very nice metaphor... very nice way of putting it~ i think you have a good point in saying that there can't be just TWO bad days in one year... memories linger..especially for such a Quest as the one Frodo and Sam went on... and i can definitely think that the Ring has some sort of lingering power for all its past bearers... the Ring is all together evil... all mortals who bear it cannot bear it without suffering from permenant consequences...

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

You say he does not have any desire for it whatsoever.. but then why does he say "It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty"? when he had his first March illness? Wouldn't the Ring have affected him somewhat? I mean perhaps "desire" is too strong of a word to put it but i think he perhaps feel somewhat of an...addiction to it?

This really deserves a much longer answer than there's room for here, but I'll try to keep it short and to the point... I totally agree that the Ring affected Frodo in many ways, and that it was difficult for him to recover his sense of self after it had been so thoroughly undermined. But the idea of 'addiction' doesn't work for me because an addiction always starts with a positive experience of some sort, or at least the illusion of being given something worthwhile -- and there's never a hint of that with Frodo.

The line you quote can refer to that sense of having lost his integrity and purpose, because Frodo had to stay wrapped around the Ring for so long, to carry it so far. (Though we can't be entirely sure that "it" in this line refers to the Ring. It's not the anniversary of the Ring's destruction after all, but that of Shelob's Lair. Peculiar as that is, Tolkien must have been aware of it, and it has to mean something.) In any case, I can't read it as an expression of desire to have the Ring back, because there is no context for such a desire anywhere in the text. I see it as an expression of loss and total disorientation.

As for the guilt issue, I guess it just comes naturally to us to think that, because we're raised to be far more ego-focused than hobbits are in general. :) But all that we hear about Frodo's feelings after the Ring was destroyed and before October 6 is that he was tremendously relieved and glad. Everything he says afterwards centers on that (such as the lovely line 'now night, too, is beautiful').

He did everything that he could (and more), and the quest was achieved, with Sam's and even Gollum's help. Frodo didn't make anything like a morally wrong choice, he was finally subdued by a power no one could have resisted forever (not even Gandalf, or Galadriel, by their own admission to Frodo). This entire experience certainly showed Frodo the limits of his own strength and endurance, but that could only have amounted to guilty feelings if he'd believed himself to be invincible before -- and he very obviously didn't.

The only thought that can then cause a sense of failure or guilt is the belief "*I* should have been the one to do this." But there's no indication that Frodo considered himself that important, and since he's obviously happy to share the praise with Sam, why not with Gollum? Gandalf had foretold that Gollum might still play an important part after all.

Frodo's 'problems', for all that we know about his reasons to leave Middle-earth, begin as he's about to return to the Shire. Besides the recurring pains from Weathertop and Shelob's Lair, we see a slow process of withdrawal indicating that Frodo realized that he couldn't return to his former life and self. Of course the Ring has everything to do with that, but I think Frodo's real desire at that time is 'to be himself again'. He remembers what it was like to feel whole (and very much wants for Sam to experience that, at least), but he can't achieve it in the Shire anymore.

The Ring took his life away from him and set him on another path, but it also entwined itself so much with Frodo's self that anything resembling a 'desire' for the Ring may ultimately be a desire for regaining the kind of understanding of himself and his purpose that Frodo had even while he carried it.

So... I don't think it's necessary to assume either desire for the Ring or guilt, to understand why Frodo finally needed to leave. But I believe too, as Eykar said in one of her posts, that Frodo was transformed in positive ways as well. As Gandalf predicted in Rivendell, he became 'clear as glass', so that the light could shine through him. :)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

I meant to ask this before, and now I just forgot again: What does periantari mean?

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

::still thinking of the thoughts that you put down in the previous comment:: but in the meantime, i'll answer your PS =)

Fellow LotR friend from warofthering actually made it up combining "perian" which means hobbit, and "-tari" which is basically the suffix for "queen"... so i'm a "hobbit-queen" ;) (i know ..not canon since there are no hobbit-queens ;) but... hehe i love hobits and wanted a name relating to my precioussss hobbitses ;) =)

What does your name mean?

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

I'm distracted as heck tonight, so I don't know how coherent I'll be, but I had to answer this one.

While we don't see evidence from Frodo that the Ring causes desire or addiction, we certainly see evidence of that from Bilbo and Gollum. Gollum's obsession with the Ring is overwhelming -- his desire is what keeps him alive -- and I'd hardly say that murdering your best friend is a great way to start a morning.

Bilbo, ditto. His first interaction with the Ring is combined with the scary problem of how to not be eaten. There's no indication that invisibility gives you any sort of "rush" or pleasure, and yet, even after the Ring is destroyed Bilbo desires to see it again.

As for the March illness, it is not just the anniversary of Shelob's lair. It is the anniversary of the one time the Ring was taken from Frodo without being destroyed. Remember Gandalf telling Frodo that taking the Ring from him by force would be a bad idea? Before Frodo ever leaves Bag End, Gandalf says that he cannot "make" Frodo let go of or destroy the Ring without breaking his mind? (Well, to be strict you can read the line as meaning that the force necessary would break Frodo's mind, but the implication is still that Frodo must chose to let go or destroy the Ring if he's to come away intact.)

So, yes, I think you can read the text to show that the Ring causes a kind of addiction, a kind of desire for knowing it's in your pocket all the time.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

took the words from my mouth, rabidsamfan =)
Especially like the emphasis on It is the anniversary of the one time the Ring was taken from Frodo without being destroyed.

Through the movie, you can see Bilbo needing it to be in his pocket... Gollum desired it just as much... and Frodo grows increasingly attached to it over the course of his journey...

by finally being stripped of it by force by Gollum.. it is obvious that there will be possible psychological consequences...

::going to stop rambling now...my brain is going slower by the minute due to the time it is:: :P (more tomorrow ...seriously signing off LJ now ;)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply. :)

While we don't see evidence from Frodo that the Ring causes desire or addiction, we certainly see evidence of that from Bilbo and Gollum.

We do see things that may be likened to addiction, it's true, but the most important point in this context is that neither Bilbo nor Gollum would have been suitable Ring-bearers. It's interesting to consider the commonalities between all three, to figure out how the Ring works and affects people. But to figure out what exactly happened to Frodo, and why he was the one who carried the Ring so far, it's by far more important to look at the differences between the three.

Gollum kills a close friend on first sight of the Ring. Frodo, even under extreme stress, is never driven any further than to call Sam 'thief'. Obviously enough, the Ring has the power to waken desire for possession of it in individuals, depending on their disposition and various motives. Some (like Boromir) give in to this desire even across a distance, others (like Frodo and Sam) feel only a fleeting allure. But the most important difference that sets Frodo apart from Bilbo and Gollum is, I think, his clear awareness of what it is that he carries.

He's susceptible to the Ring's allure at a point in time when he hasn't fully grasped yet what the Ring's nature and power is -- before the actual beginning of the quest. From that point onwards, we see him undergo a constant learning process: Sometimes he falters before the Ring's assaults and manipulative tactics, but for every time that he does, he learns to guard himself against it. The Ring tries to tempt and manipulate him, yet Frodo resists for so long that the Ring finally resorts to brutal force, by physically blinding him, or eclipsing his memories later on.

Frodo also knows from the beginning that he cannot use (let alone 'trust') the Ring, that nothing but evil will come from it, and that it will quite possibly destroy him, or lead him to his death. None of this compares to Bilbo's, Gollum's, or anybody else's Ring experiences.

And it's also far removed from a process of increasing 'addiction' (as it's commonly understood), and once Frodo knows what he's dealing with, desire is never an issue. But to carry the Ring to Mordor, he must also consciously allow it to entwine itself with him, to undermine his mind and self -- a terrible process, which certainly leaves painful traces behind. That Frodo ultimately can't retrieve his connection to the Shire is one of them.

(So, of course, he *is* in need of healing, too. I just don't think that these problems can be compared to 'addiction' or PTSD, and I believe that the transformation process is more complex and involves positive aspects as well. Frodo grows wise through the quest, he develops a gift of foresight, and light begins to shine through him.)

More in the next post...

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Remember Gandalf telling Frodo that taking the Ring from him by force would be a bad idea? Before Frodo ever leaves Bag End, Gandalf says that he cannot "make" Frodo let go of or destroy the Ring without breaking his mind? (Well, to be strict you can read the line as meaning that the force necessary would break Frodo's mind, but the implication is still that Frodo must chose to let go or destroy the Ring if he's to come away intact.)

I agree with the implications, but not the conclusion you draw from this. What Gandalf describes is the Ring's horrific power to entrench itself in the bearer's life and self, like a parasite that begins to take over vital functions of its host's organism. But this is not 'addiction': it's the Ring's 'programming' and instinctive behavior that will work on any bearer. It can be intensified by desire (as in Gollum's case), but doesn't require it.

But I disagree where you conclude that Gandalf describes what Frodo should do to 'remain intact'. First and foremost, that option does not exist. Frodo won't remain intact, and he's very likely to die in the quest: that's what Frodo himself accepts from the beginning. I don't think Gandalf ever believed that Frodo could finally have thrown it into the fire ('letting it go' in any other sense is not an option for the Ring-bearer anyway, not after Rivendell). Gandalf sees how Frodo can't bring himself to throw the Ring into Bag End's little hearth fire, so he must know that if Frodo truly makes it to the Cracks of Doom, there's no chance for him to destroy it all by himself, not least because the Ring's own power will be magnified extremely within proximity of Sauron.

What Gandalf perceives in Frodo is a chance for the quest to succeed, in ways he cannot foretell (except for that inkling about the part Gollum will play). You might call it a desperate gamble, but it's not a moral prediction of any kind. Gandalf sends Frodo on a quest that will in all probability break and/or kill him, and Frodo accepts that and promises to do his best (which he certainly does).

I'll reply to your comment about March 13th in the next post, since periantari also mentioned it... and before I exceed the limit for posts again. ;)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

(I just posted two comments in answer to rabidsamfan's reply. Don't know if you'll get notification for that, so I thought I'd let you know. :)

As for March 13th: As for the March illness, it is not just the anniversary of Shelob's lair. It is the anniversary of the one time the Ring was taken from Frodo without being destroyed.

Yes, that's exactly right, and Frodo's reactions at that time show very clearly in what way his connection to the Ring differs profoundly from Gollum's, and that it's not a matter of addiction or desire at all.

What we see in Cirith Ungol is that Frodo has *forgotten* the Ring. He regains full awareness and takes much comfort from Sam holding him, yet he doesn't feel the Ring's absence nor experience any instinctive or emotional need for it. He begins to walk around, feels much better, and his spirits rise. Still no thought of the Ring. Only when he and Sam begin to discuss their situation, and Sam mentions walking through the Black Land, does Frodo remember the Ring.

This development illustrates that the Ring is firmly ensconced in Frodo's conscious self-awareness and rational knowledge of what he must do. But it doesn't touch his heart, it doesn't affect his immediate emotional needs, or his ability to trust Sam. I think it's a very beautiful illustration of Frodo's inner strength, in fact. :)

Only when he remembers himself *as* the Ring-bearer does he recognize the separation that he can't, at this point of the journey, endure. But even so, the Ring's hold over him doesn't affect his clarity of vision for very long. Immediately afterwards, Frodo tells Sam exactly what is happening to him: "It is the horrible power of the Ring. I wish it had never, never, been found. (...)I must carry the burden to the end. It can't be altered. You can't come between me and this doom."

Acceptance of his 'doom' has allowed the Ring to gain hold over a part of Frodo's conscious self, and this hold can't be broken anymore without causing injury to Frodo. So, yes, there are psychological consequences, no doubt about it. (I simply don't see any reason to connect these consequences with guilt or desire for the Ring.)

When I look at everything that actually happened at Cirith Ungol, I can't conclude that on March 13th, Frodo suddenly experiences what he didn't in the tower: an instinctive and/or emotional craving for the Ring, for which he must then feel even more guilty. In the tower, Frodo was able to experience a final moment of peace, comfort, and happiness -- a sense of being at home and himself, of being *free* -- before the Ring's most cruel attack set in. The significance of that entire situation simply goes far beyond the experience of having 'lost' the Ring.

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Thanks for the explanation. It reminds me of Frodo calling Mrs. Maggot 'a queen among farmers' wives.' :)

My name doesn't mean anything in particular and has no relation to LOTR. 'Loup' means 'wolf' in French though -- hopefully that won't bring up any notions of wargs, or wolves crossing the frozen Brandywine...

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

How much training did he have for any part of the quest’ Compared to all he has recently been forced to do and learn, the largely honorary office of Deputy Mayor is a walk in the park!

There was nothing honorary about the office of Deputy Mayor that year. And frankly, dealing with a lot of fussing hobbits over property issues and trying to find fair solutions to problems between people would be a lot of strain for someone who has started to feel disassociated, either because of damage (my version) or spiritual transformation (your version.)

Frodo sails alive to the Undying Lands, where mortals who are admitted die only at a time of their own choosing, in a state of estel (hope.) Assuming, as seems probable, that he is waiting when Sam eventually arrives, he lives at least another 62 years, which he could have lived in the Shire had he seen sufficient reason to do so.

And in the Undying lands he can have a long life -- and be healed so that he can enjoy that long life -- where in Middle Earth we do not know if Saruman's words would be accurate or just spiteful. Without a grain of truth the lie would have no power at all.

An equally reasonable (and less convoluted) interpretation is that Sam wants to go with Frodo but realizes that he was not invited and now has other attachments to keep him in ME.
Other attachments, yes. But when did Sam ever learn that he needed an invitation? And you're missing my point. It's the protests that Sam doesn't make that matter here.

Both, as Sam fills those last pages with his deeper understandings over the years, having only the book (and later Elanor) with whom to discuss any of these matters. (I think that the description of Frodo’s arrival in the Undying Lands was written by Frodo, with a glimmering of foreknowledge, to reassure Sam.)

Do you think Sam started interleaving pages of his own comments throughout the text, then? Stepping away from "the author is Tolkien" to the "authors are Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam" requires a certain amount of debate, and a recognition of the nature of handwritten texts. Sam is certainly the one who reports on the conversation in Woody End, if we take the epilogue statement to Elinor that no one knows of Frodo's promise but he himself as true. But it has to be Frodo who tells us that Sam doesn't see the respect that he is accorded alongside of Merry and Pippin. Of course, this is could lead to an entirely different debate.

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

I’ve heard people talking in their sleep; reconstructing the whole dream from such muttered fragments is impossible without confirmation when the sleeper awakes.
So have I and it depends on the sleeper (I've had conversations with people who were sleeping so soundly they don't remember a word of it next morning) and how much information you're gathering. Sam in the drabble only needs to hear the words "The Sea" or "the waves" or suchlike to know of the presence of the topic in Frodo's dreams.

Gandalf had Sam, Merry, Pippin and Aragorn to provide the factual framework to allow him to read Frodo’s “mind and memory.” Frodo’s sleep talking provided emotional content.

What about the barrow wight incident? Frodo hadn't told anyone what happened in the barrow, but Gandalf seemed to know in enough detail to weigh the danger. Of course, a wizard might be able to encourage more coherence than the average listener.

Nowhere is it stated that the Gondorian song about Frodo of the Nine Fingers contains more than a summary of the quest reconstructed from the information available to waking people. It is clear to everyone that Frodo and Sam made it to Mount Doom and that the Ring was there destroyed, which is very likely as much detail as the song contained on the subject.

Flummery. The song took hours. The very title tells us that it will have to contain at the very least a description of why Frodo is "Nine-Fingered" as most of the audience isn't close enough to see for themselves. And why that title -- so close to the title which Sam spoke of on the mountain -- if none of the waking folks know what happened at all after Sam and Frodo left Ithilien? I do offer an alternate explanation expanded upon more than sleep-talking in my story "Fourteen Days", but you can't make a heroic epic out of the bare bones of "they went, the mountain blew up, Gandalf brought them back on the Eagles and gosh, won't it be interesting to find out what happened in the meantime?"

I can accept it as meaningful within its own AU but not within LoTR as written – typical of fanfic writers, other than the few, including yourself, who consistently write at least short pieces that are true to the published text.

Well I'm glad you think I'm canonical most of the time, LOL! But I think this piece is as well.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

True that he can be transformed in a positive way and that is indeed a very optimistic way to put it. But i do not think can think the trials he faced could be lessened in influence and say that it didn't contribute to his wanting to leave Middle-Earth. I mean Karyn Milos' essay does seem biased in thinking one way but i feel like it defends its point well.

Very convincing argument that Frodo has been transformed to become more spiritual and has no more attachment to the Shire because of his change... but his illnesses, his withdrawal from the Shire could also be read as memories from the Quest that will never cease... Ok, maybe not particularly from wanting the Ring back or from being torn in thinking about it, but from so many trials and challenges that the Quest brought about him that he can never be a carefree hobbit of the Shire again.,... maybe this is though of as growth (and the Ring and Quest has made him beyond the regular plain hobbit) but also has changed him in negative ways so that he can never be the same again... in becoming part of the Shire again but also that he can’t live with the painful memories of the Quest…

Of course the Ring has everything to do with that, but I think Frodo's real desire at that time is 'to be himself again'. He remembers what it was like to feel whole (and very much wants for Sam to experience that, at least), but he can't achieve it in the Shire anymore.
He can't achieve it in the Shire anymore because of the Quest... because perhaps he's been changed, but also because of all the evil memories associated with the Quest.

The Shire has been saved, but not for me."
This can be read as either him changing too much but also can be read as BECAUSE of the Quest and all that he gone through, the hurts that he has succumbed to BY the Quest.. by the Witchking's blade, by Shelob's Lair.. and probably the dark times in Mordor and as a captive at Cirith Ungol can lead to his never being the same again.

Interpretation of the text is tricky and from what has been usually said, I guess i am still buying into the "Too Deeply Hurt" argument and perhaps interpreting all the illnesses on the anniversary dates to be worth a lot, but certainly i think the reason for Frodo's departure can stem from both growing apart from the Shire to become more spiritual but also, (which makes logical sense in a lot of ways) because of the "some hurts go too deep" kind of theory.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

Sometimes he falters before the Ring's assaults and manipulative tactics, but for every time that he does, he learns to guard himself against it. The Ring tries to tempt and manipulate him, yet Frodo resists for so long that the Ring finally resorts to brutal force, by physically blinding him, or eclipsing his memories later on.

This is very interesting point because i remember that Frodo did indeed grew in knowing how to control the Ring’s power by withholding his desire to put on the Ring when he was outside Minas Morgul:

Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king—not yet.”

This is a powerful passage to describe Frodo’s growth in learning to control his actions regarding the Ring… very important point this is and makes Frodo-lovers love him even a bit more for his restraint in not yielding during this particularly perilous time.

Even though Frodo grew and learned to be resistant to the Ring’s power, this does not wholly mean that he was unaffected by what the Ring did to him…I mean it was destroyed and no particular text goes to show that he still thought about it and that it was burning in his mind (other than saying that he said “It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty”) one can interpret either way of what the Quest did to him… Spiritual transformation, perhaps, but also in the way that it indeed hurt him enough to leave… He grows in spirit, in mind and in knowledge but that doesn’t mean he not also hurt in the process of becoming that way. (wow..i feel like I’m having deja-vu writing this) hehe)

He may feel hurt, he may have grown spiritually to not belong in the Shire anymore, but I think both reasons are plausible in the interpretation of why Frodo left Middle-Earth. One thing is for certain though is that he left in order to find peace for himself… It will be unsure of why but I think the strongest reasons are all supplied in this wonderful conversation that

rabidsamfan and

eykar started and very insightful folk (elycia, caraloup, belegcuthalion) continued… hehe I learned a lot.. .thanks for so much insomniac nights…
I’ll be back ;)

From:

caraloup.livejournal.com

Even though Frodo grew and learned to be resistant to the Ring’s power, this does not wholly mean that he was unaffected by what the Ring did to him…I mean it was destroyed and no particular text goes to show that he still thought about it and that it was burning in his mind (other than saying that he said “It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty”)

Oh, I don't think that Frodo was unaffected (or unhurt)! I just don't see any reason to assume that he felt more than the traces of having been attacked by the Ring... which surely is painful and disturbing enough. But if the Ring had been 'burning in his mind', would he then say 'all is dark and empty'? Also, the Ring is so firmly associated with darkness, and the only time it's described in terms of light, it's a 'wheel of fire' before Frodo's eyes -- while he feels 'naked in the dark.' After that experience, is it really possible to imagine that he'd think of the Ring's destruction as having left his world 'dark and empty'? I can't seem to make that connection.

Spiritual transformation, perhaps, but also in the way that it indeed hurt him enough to leave… He grows in spirit, in mind and in knowledge but that doesn’t mean he not also hurt in the process of becoming that way.

No, I think we agree on that. :) It's a complex process that involves several different factors, and perhaps we just envision a different balance between the painful and the positive aspects.

He may feel hurt, he may have grown spiritually to not belong in the Shire anymore, but I think both reasons are plausible in the interpretation of why Frodo left Middle-Earth.

I think neither can be separated from the other. Just as there is gain to Frodo's losses, so there's pain in the process of growth.

(Wow, I've managed something that qualifies as a short answer, I think! That must mean we've clarified a couple of points, yes? :)

From:

frodobaggins-88.livejournal.com

Where can you get these letters? This conversation is interesting, especially considering I'm considering writing a fic related to this topic. Everyone has some good points about Frodo. Very interesting.

From:

rabidsamfan.livejournal.com

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, with Christopher Tolkien, Houghton Mifflin, 2000 ISBN 0-618-05699-8.

Try any big bookstore.

From:

periantari.livejournal.com

yes indeed i feel like i've learned a lot in this topic :) it's really so interesting to read about another reason about why Frodo would leave ME..and this one about his "spiritual transformation" is a very interesting and fascinating one to point out indeed =)

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